# I pit the people behind anti-transgender "bathroom bills" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831 "2016-02-22T20:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/81 "2016-04-03T01:15:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But if someone who has male genitals and looks like our traditional view of a man - but who says she identifies as a woman - by the logic of transgender accomodation, she is still a man. No she’s not. To be specific: that friend of mine who just came out as trans? She’s keeping a traditionally masculine name (for now). If you looked at a picture of her, you’d almost certainly identify her as male. Most of the recent pictures of her show her wearing traditionally masculine dress. If she wants to go into a female bathroom, it’s none of my, or your, goddamned business. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/82 "2016-04-03T01:25:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why even have “ladies’ rooms” and “mens’ rooms” in the first place? A fair number of places…don’t! Many of the campground bathrooms in the Cleveland National Forest and its neighbors have unisex bathrooms. (When the facility is nothing but an outhouse, it really doesn’t make a damn bit of difference!) Many doctors’ offices have bathrooms in their labs, where patients can go to collect a urine sample: these bathrooms are usually single and solitary, and thus unisex. I had my oil changed at a Jiffy Lube. The waiting room had a single, unisex bathroom available. I predict this becoming a lot more common, not only to cope with new categorization debates, but because it saves on construction costs, and because we’re gradually becoming a society that doesn’t care so much anymore. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/83 "2016-04-03T02:06:03Z")
You actually _missed_ this bullshit, **lance**? At least you’re in the Pit this time, so if someone would prefer you cram your inane “devil’s advocate” shtick up your ass, they can make it clear. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/84 "2016-04-03T02:15:07Z")
Just to be clear, I would so prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/85 "2016-04-03T02:42:48Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why even have “ladies’ rooms” and “mens’ rooms” in the first place? That’s an extremely good question. WHY, INDEED? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/86 "2016-04-03T06:03:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Just to be clear, I would so prefer. Noted! ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/87 "2016-04-03T19:18:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > And then there’s the whole segregated restroom thing in the first place. If we are to say that it shouldn’t matter who you share a restroom with, well, why have those at all? Exactly! Gender-neutral restrooms are certainly a lot easier to deal with than legislation that specifies women must wear skirts and makeup in public. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/88 "2016-04-03T19:56:04Z")
The problem with lance is that his idiotic posts distract from substantive discussion. I repeat, folks: we Southerners need your help to fight back against the assholes who’ve taken over our government. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/89 "2016-04-03T20:26:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. Donate to Roy Cooper, Pat McCrory’s opponent in November. Cooper has spoken publicly against the law; moreover, he’s our state’s attorney general, and because he believes the bill to be unconstitutional, he’s refused to defend it in court. Dude is pretty freakin’ cool for a Southern Democrat. Is he a “Southern Democrat” (as in “someone who’s actually to the right of most Republicans but who runs with the Democratic Party because otherwise people wouldn’t vote him because Lincoln was a Republican”), or is he a real Democrat who happens to be in the South? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why even have “ladies’ rooms” and “mens’ rooms” in the first place? > [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > That’s an extremely good question. > > WHY, INDEED? You two are only about 5 weeks late… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/90 "2016-04-03T20:32:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No she’s not. > > To be specific: that friend of mine who just came out as trans? She’s keeping a traditionally masculine name (for now). If you looked at a picture of her, you’d almost certainly identify her as male. Most of the recent pictures of her show her wearing traditionally masculine dress. If she wants to go into a female bathroom, it’s none of my, or your, goddamned business. So are you saying she can use either restroom without question? After all, since she’s genetically male, she can use the men’s room too. That’s my point. There’s no way to enforce restrictions on gender. And you think there’s no right to do so. So we might as well stop pretending bathrooms are segregated by gender. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/91 "2016-04-03T20:33:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem with lance is that his idiotic posts distract from substantive discussion. I repeat, folks: we Southerners need your help to fight back against the assholes who’ve taken over our government. My posts are very intelligent. I’m thinking through things that didn’t occur to most people. It’s sad when people like you think things that are above your head are actually below them because you can’t understand them. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/92 "2016-04-03T20:35:00Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Exactly! Gender-neutral restrooms are certainly a lot easier to deal with than legislation that specifies women must wear skirts and makeup in public. Exactly. You get it. It’s bizarre to replace a definition of gender as “you have certain genitals” with “you look a certain way based on traditional societal norms” and say you are making people more free. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/93 "2016-04-03T20:36:29Z")
> [@andros](#): > > You actually _missed_ this bullshit, **lance**? > > At least you’re in the Pit this time, so if someone would prefer you cram your inane “devil’s advocate” shtick up your ass, they can make it clear. I’m sorry if you can’t handle the higher-level thinking that this requires. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/94 "2016-04-03T20:36:51Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Is he a “Southern Democrat” (as in “someone who’s actually to the right of most Republicans but who runs with the Democratic Party because otherwise people wouldn’t vote him because Lincoln was a Republican”), or is he a real Democrat who happens to be in the South? Granted that everything is on a continuum, he’s definitely a “real Democrat”. Yellow Dog Democrats are all but vanished; they’re no longer a significant part of our political system. You can check out Roy Cooper’s stance on issues [here](http://www.roycooper.com/issues/): > [@Roy Cooper](#): > > We need to make education a priority. Governor McCrory has prioritized huge tax giveaways to big corporations and those at the top while he cut teaching assistants and failed to provide the resources our children need and to pay our teachers what they deserve. > > We have to give more pay and respect to teachers, and to treat them as the professionals they are. Among the top priorities are increasing teacher pay, reversing cuts to textbooks and school buses, and stopping teacher assistant lay-offs. > … > Some believe that we should zero out the corporate tax and income tax in favor of much higher sales taxes, gas taxes, and a host of fee hikes. I think that would harm our economy and put our state at a disadvantage. Moreover, I am concerned about an economic development plan that focuses mostly on lower corporate taxes instead of having a real, holistic plan to streamline regulations, invest in our workforce, create a fair but low tax environment, and recruit, retain, and start up businesses in the biggest growth sectors of our economy. > … > We are in a war for talent, and companies that can’t attract the right talent will leave, or perhaps never come to this state. Divisive politics and words of intolerance are harmful to our state and used against us by others recruiting for the same businesses and the same jobs. The fact is in 2010, an immigrant or child of an immigrant founded 40 percent of Fortune 500 companies. North Carolina women are starting businesses at a rate of 1.5 times the national average. We have arguably the nation’s finest university system. But being the butt of jokes for late night comedy shows is self-sabotage when it comes to economic recruitment and development. > … > North Carolinians should be able to get a doctor’s help when they need it without breaking the bank. I am appalled by North Carolina’s failure to expand Medicaid to its neediest residents, especially when our tax dollars are already going to pay for it in other states. Republican governors nationwide have said yes to health care for the working poor, why not North Carolina? > … > As Governor, I will fight to: > > ``` > Reinstate same-day voter registration > Extend early voting from 10 to 17 days > Allow for online voter registration > Rollback voter ID and pass laws that encourage voting > > ``` It might look like I’m shilling for Cooper. I’m not: I am likely to disagree with him on a lot of issues, as you might guess from my username if nothing else :). Mainly I’m using Cooper as an example. Folks who are outside of the South and who are appalled by the governments in the South should find a way to help change things in the South, and finding a vulnerable asshole Republican governor like McCrory and donating to his opponent is a great first step. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/95 "2016-04-03T20:40:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem with lance is that his idiotic posts distract from substantive discussion. I repeat, folks: we Southerners need your help to fight back against the assholes who’ve taken over our government. P.S. I am engaged in substantive discussion. People like you just want to yell “assholes!” It’s not only pointless, it’s boring. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/96 "2016-04-03T20:40:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My posts are very intelligent. You, SlackerInc, Shagnasty, and AK84 (I think) are the only people on this messageboard who regularly brag about their smarts. Coincidentally, you’re all idiots. Wait, that’s not coincidental. Folks who are actually intelligent generally allow their intelligence to speak for itself. If you find yourself repeatedly relying on declarations of your intelligence to try to persuade people, it’s pretty likely that you’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/97 "2016-04-03T20:45:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You, SlackerInc, Shagnasty, and AK84 (I think) are the only people on this messageboard who regularly brag about their smarts. Coincidentally, you’re all idiots. > > Wait, that’s not coincidental. Folks who are actually intelligent generally allow their intelligence to speak for itself. If you find yourself repeatedly relying on declarations of your intelligence to try to persuade people, it’s pretty likely that you’re an idiot. I don’t expect declarations of my intelligence to convince anyone that I’m intelligent. Not at all. Anyone who goes around saying “you’re an idiot” is a pointless fuckwad in the first place. There’s no point in trying to convince them. They clearly are too stupid themselves to get the point, and they have nothing of substance to back up their insults. The only useful response is to simply inform them that they are wrong and continue to discuss the issue with those who are open-minded and intelligent enough to handle it. And I note that your last claim is a really awful logical fallacy, which is amusing. If you have something substantive to offer, feel free. If you want to call me names, I’m glad it makes you feel good about yourself. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/98 "2016-04-03T20:51:33Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Exactly! Gender-neutral restrooms are certainly a lot easier to deal with than legislation that specifies women must wear skirts and makeup in public. P.S. that’s true, but it’s going to be tougher with locker rooms, unless all showers and dressing areas are made private with individual stalls too. By the way, I got to thinking about this after a man - someone who apparently is genetically male and identifies as male - went into a women’s locker room, apparently trying to make a point about the new transgender accomodation law in Portland (I think). Suppose that person actually identified as the female gender? What could we say - that she doesn’t look female? What if she said we have no right to tell her how she should look? If we can’t tell a female she’s not because she doesn’t have the “right” genitals, how can we justify telling her she’s not female because she doesn’t have the “right” clothes or hair or whatever? How can we replace one rigid idea about gender with another, one that’s far more arbitrary and fluid? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/99 "2016-04-03T20:57:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Exactly. You get it. > > It’s bizarre to replace a definition of gender as “you have certain genitals” with “you look a certain way based on traditional societal norms” and say you are making people more free. But that’s not it - it’s “the gender an individual identifies as”. And yes, people can lie, but why would that be any more likely with this new way of thinking than with the old? It’s not as if any bathrooms ever had genital checks. The reason it makes people more free is because trans people should be allowed to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity. Since there’s no reason to believe deception and voyeurism would be any more common now than before, this improves the lives of trans people while harming no one, except perhaps bigots. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/100 "2016-04-03T21:22:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > But that’s not it - it’s “the gender an individual identifies as”. You’re saying that there are (or should be) no restrictions on who uses a bathroom – it doesn’t matter what your genes are or your genitals are OR your appearance is – as long as you identify with that gender? That someone who has male genitals and looks entirely like what we think of as traditionally a man, but who says she identifies as a female, should be able to use the women’s room? And women’s locker room? That’s fine. But if so, what’s the point of having gendered restrooms at all? That’s all I’m asking. If we have no restrictions other than what someone says is in their head about their gender, is there really a point to segregated restrooms anyway? > [@](#): > > The reason it makes people more free is because trans people should be allowed to use the bathroom that corresponds with their gender identity. Since there’s no reason to believe deception and voyeurism would be any more common now than before, this improves the lives of trans people while harming no one, except perhaps bigots. I’m not really talking about deception now, but I think it’s ridiculous to say there’s no reason to think deception wont’ happen more, since it would be incredibly easy. In fact, there would be absolutely no way to stop it. There was no genital check before, sure, but now you can’t even have an appearance check - can you? But that’s a side issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=6)