# I pit the people behind anti-transgender "bathroom bills" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831 "2016-02-22T20:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/121 "2016-04-03T22:56:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for perves, the best way to handle pervs is to punish perv behavior. If a guy is peeking over my stall, then that’s a problem even though we’re both in the male bathroom. So a dude in the ladies room just taking a dump is not a problem, but a dude in the ladies’ room standing on the toilet to look over the stall, that would be a serious issue. Yep, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/122 "2016-04-03T22:57:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure – that’s what most people seem to prefer, But they can no longer prefer it. It effectively no longer exists, or won’t for long. If the person using the restroom with you could be a member of the opposite sex but look like you, or be a member of the opposite sex and look like a member of the opposite sex, what is left to prefer? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/123 "2016-04-03T22:58:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for perves, the best way to handle pervs is to punish perv behavior. If a guy is peeking over my stall, then that’s a problem even though we’re both in the male bathroom. So a dude in the ladies room just taking a dump is not a problem, but a dude in the ladies’ room standing on the toilet to look over the stall, that would be a serious issue. Sure. So why do we have gender-separate restrooms in the first place? Why couldn’t I say the exact same thing about letting cisgender males into the women’s room even without the transgender issue? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/124 "2016-04-03T22:59:43Z")
Now we can move onto locker rooms, where I’m not convinced women’s fear of men should be discounted. Is there any movement to allow transgenders to use women’s locker rooms? Has it already been done in some places and most women are okay with it? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/125 "2016-04-03T23:07:26Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure. > > So why do we have gender-separate restrooms in the first place? Why couldn’t I say the exact same thing about letting cisgender males into the women’s room even without the transgender issue? I pose this to everyone, because its the heart of my point. Why even have gendered restrooms at all? And if we go down the route of saying we shouldn’t, should we also discount other people’s feelings about that? Should we consider them hateful or backward if they disagree? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/126 "2016-04-03T23:19:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But they can no longer prefer it. It effectively no longer exists, or won’t for long. If the person using the restroom with you could be a member of the opposite sex but look like you, or be a member of the opposite sex and look like a member of the opposite sex, what is left to prefer? Why can’t they prefer it? That’s what’s going to happen almost every time, almost every day. Most people are going to continue as they always have. What’s the big change here, day to day, in most people’s lives? Why does a tiny chance of something different (which could have happened, in one form or another, even under past mores and conventions) change things so significantly? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I pose this to everyone, because its the heart of my point. Why even have gendered restrooms at all? And if we go down the route of saying we shouldn’t, should we also discount other people’s feelings about that? Should we consider them hateful or backward if they disagree? Why does the tiny chance of something different happening affect people’s desires for gendered bathrooms, when almost every time we’ll continue as we have for decades and centuries? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/127 "2016-04-03T23:34:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Why can’t they prefer it? That’s what’s going to happen almost every time, almost every day. Why can’t they prefer not to share a bathroom with a transgender person? Simple preference is not sufficient. > [@](#): > > Most people are going to continue as they always have. What’s the big change here, day to day, in most people’s lives? Why does a tiny chance of something different (which could have happened, in one form or another, even under past mores and conventions) change things so significantly? Changing bathrooms to unisex rather than gender-segregated would be an enormous change. I’m asking how gender-segregated bathrooms are logically defensible any more. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/128 "2016-04-03T23:40:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why can’t they prefer not to share a bathroom with a transgender person? Simple preference is not sufficient. They can, but I won’t respect that any more than a preference to not share a bathroom with Jews. > [@](#): > > Changing bathrooms to unisex rather than gender-segregated would be an enormous change. > > I’m asking how gender-segregated bathrooms are logically defensible any more. Simply because most people prefer them, and if trans people are respected, almost all of the time they cause no problems. It’s logical to continue a convention that almost everyone prefers and will almost never cause a problem. Why would it be logical to change, when such a change would be opposed by most people? ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/129 "2016-04-03T23:50:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Now we can move onto locker rooms, where I’m not convinced women’s fear of men should be discounted. Is there any movement to allow transgenders to use women’s locker rooms? Has it already been done in some places and most women are okay with it? Thinking back on my (limited) locker room experiences in high school and college…while most ladies used the common area for changing, there were quite a few who would only strip down in the confines of the shower stalls or toilet stalls. No one thought anything of it. Since this is often brought up as an argument for these bathroom laws, I’m really wondering how many locker rooms have zero areas of privacy. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/130 "2016-04-04T03:08:12Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I’m sorry if you can’t handle the higher-level thinking that this requires. I imagine you’re a huge hit at parties, doll. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/131 "2016-04-04T03:10:21Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But if someone who has male genitals and looks like our traditional view of a man - but who says she identifies as a woman - by the logic of transgender accomodation, she is still a man. Most people would question the sincerity of her beliefs and say she is faking it just to go in the women’s room. What? Oh, you’re doing your “why have gendered bathrooms” tangent again. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/132 "2016-04-04T04:02:08Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > You’re saying that there are (or should be) no restrictions on who uses a bathroom – it doesn’t matter what your genes are or your genitals are OR your appearance is – as long as you identify with that gender? As long as it’s an sincere and honestly-held identification. > [@](#): > > But if so, what’s the point of having gendered restrooms at all? To segregate the genders. Was this a gotcha? The problem in your innumerable “intelligent” posts is you somehow are not understanding gender identity. Google can help. > [@](#): > > If we have no restrictions other than what someone says is in their head about their gender, is there really a point to segregated restrooms anyway? And this is the core of your problem. You simply don’t believe or don’t understand what gender identity is. > [@](#): > > I’m not really talking about deception now, but I think it’s ridiculous to say there’s no reason to think deception wont’ happen more, since it would be incredibly easy. You’re not really talking about deception…and then you talk about deception. Could you just spend more time telling us all how intelligent you are? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/133 "2016-04-04T04:09:19Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No. > > I am not arguing against accomodating transgender people. Really. Your arguments do not come across as having any sympathy with us; rather, that you’re trying to set up a logic “gotcha!” around transgender people’s toilet choice so that suddenly everyone will slap their foreheads and say “egad! He’s right! Why are we allowing them thar’ people to use OUR bathrooms!” > [@](#): > > I’m saying that if we have no right to determine gender based on sex, how can we turn around and say we can determine it based on appearance? Shouldn’t someone who appears male have the right to say she is female? Shouldn’t she have the right to defy societal norms of appearance and define her gender herself as much as she has the right to defy the idea that gender=sex? > > So what restrictions do have have left on determining who uses what bathroom, if any, that we can impose on others as a policy? A radical idea: let me and my people use the bathrooms we need to use, severely punish the incredibly rare pervs who abuse the system (who to date are overwhelmingly cisgender males), and allow society to gradually vote over time with its asses whether or not they think gendered bathrooms are still needed. See? That wasn’t difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/134 "2016-04-04T06:37:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Granted that everything is on a continuum, he’s definitely a “real Democrat”. Well then, don’t misrepresent him, man! > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You, SlackerInc, Shagnasty, and AK84 (I think) are the only people on this messageboard who regularly brag about their smarts. Coincidentally, you’re all idiots. I haven’t noticed **AK84** doing any such bragging, unless you count “I’ve got a law degree” as “bragging about one’s smarts”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/135 "2016-04-04T10:57:49Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Well then, don’t misrepresent him, man! Huh? Edit: oh, you’re saying that I called him a “Southern Democrat”, and that means “a rightwinger who doesn’t want to be in Lincoln’s party”, is that right? If so, I’m sorry, but that’s a load of bullshit that we progressive Southerners don’t need. There are plenty of progressive Southern Democrats. The term you’re looking for is Yellow Dog Democrat. > [@](#): > > I haven’t noticed **AK84** doing any such bragging, unless you count “I’ve got a law degree” as “bragging about one’s smarts”. Maybe I’m misremembering. I think it was someone else who denied global warming and talked about how smart he was. I didn’t pay him much attention. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/136 "2016-04-04T11:44:02Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > A radical idea: let me and my people use the bathrooms we need to use, severely punish the incredibly rare pervs who abuse the system (who to date are overwhelmingly cisgender males), and allow society to gradually vote over time with its asses whether or not they think gendered bathrooms are still needed. I wholeheartedly endorse this approach, and this is what I was trying to get at, but **Una** has summed it up far better than I ever did. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/137 "2016-04-04T11:45:19Z")
Just so long as we’re clear that ‘abuse the system’ means engaging in inappropriate behavior. A cis male can enter a female bathroom strictly to use the facilities. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/138 "2016-04-04T12:12:23Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Maybe I’m misremembering. I think it was someone else who denied global warming and talked about how smart he was. I didn’t pay him much attention. **brazil84** is the self-professed genius autodidact to whom you refer, I believe. He “banned” all of us long ago so we don’t have the pleasure of basking in the warm glow of his omniscience as much these days. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/139 "2016-04-04T12:19:29Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > **brazil84** is the self-professed genius autodidact to whom you refer, I believe. He “banned” all of us long ago so we don’t have the pleasure of basking in the warm glow of his omniscience as much these days. What is he, AK84’s brother? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/140 "2016-04-04T13:59:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They can, but I won’t respect that any more than a preference to not share a bathroom with Jews. Do you respect people who prefer not to share a bathroom with a member of the opposite gender? If having separate bathrooms for Jew and non-Jew are wrong (or black and white, which we actually had once), is having separate bathrooms for men and women deplorable? Does it mean those who prefer it hate the opposite sex? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=8)