# I pit the people behind anti-transgender "bathroom bills" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831 "2016-02-22T20:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/141 "2016-04-04T14:04:52Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Do you respect people who prefer not to share a bathroom with a member of the opposite gender? > > If having separate bathrooms for Jew and non-Jew are wrong (or black and white, which we actually had once), is having separate bathrooms for men and women deplorable? Does it mean those who prefer it hate the opposite sex? Okay, I think I get what you’re saying. I don’t think it’s nearly the same since I haven’t heard from anyone about any harm due to any discrimination from separate-gender bathrooms (except harm related to anti-trans discrimination), and almost everyone still wants them to continue. There is a long history of harm from segregating bathrooms by race, with the harm obvious and demonstrable, and lots of people complaining about the harm and clamoring for change. There is no such history of harm from segregating bathrooms by gender, no such obvious or demonstrable harm, and no people complaining about the harm and clamoring for change. So that’s why it’s different, to me. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/142 "2016-04-04T14:07:16Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Really. Your arguments do not come across as having any sympathy with us; That’s because you don’t understand my arguments. My arguments are more in sympathy with you than most people. I’m saying that not only should you have the right to say what gender you are, you have the right to decide what gender is. You shouldn’t be required to look or dress or act a certain way, based on traditions, to be a certain gender. If you want to, for instance, wear a suit and tie but still identify as a woman, you should be able to do that, or if you want to wear lipstick and still identify as a man, you should be able to do that. In fact, I’m arguing that it’s absurd for anyone to say otherwise. How can we possibly place such artificial restrictions on gender when we have given up the requirement that sex determine gender? Which leads to the next question - how, and why, have gender-segregated bathrooms in that case? That’s all. > [@](#): > > rather, that you’re trying to set up a logic “gotcha!” around transgender people’s toilet choice so that suddenly everyone will slap their foreheads and say “egad! He’s right! Why are we allowing them thar’ people to use OUR bathrooms!” No, you’re wrong. So I hope you stick around and listen so you understand. > [@](#): > > A radical idea: let me and my people use the bathrooms we need to use, severely punish the incredibly rare pervs who abuse the system (who to date are overwhelmingly cisgender males), I support this. So please don’t go around saying I don’t. Listen to what I’m actually saying. > [@](#): > > and allow society to gradually vote over time with its asses whether or not they think gendered bathrooms are still needed. > > See? That wasn’t difficult. It’s not possible to “vote with their asses” on whether gendered bathrooms are still needed. If a cisgender male uses a women’s room, it’s not longer a women’s room. The male may have voted with his ass, but the women didn’t. They had no choice. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/143 "2016-04-04T14:08:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If a cisgender male uses a women’s room, it’s not longer a women’s room. The male may have voted with his ass, but the women didn’t. They had no choice. If this happens almost never, and there’s no reason to believe it will happen more than almost never, then effectively it’s still a ladies room, and will be 99.9% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/144 "2016-04-04T14:10:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I think I get what you’re saying. I don’t think it’s nearly the same since I haven’t heard from anyone about any harm due to any discrimination from separate-gender bathrooms (except harm related to anti-trans discrimination), and almost everyone still wants them to continue. There is a long history of harm from segregating bathrooms by race, with the harm obvious and demonstrable, and lots of people complaining about the harm and clamoring for change. There is no such history of harm from segregating bathrooms by gender, no such obvious or demonstrable harm, and no people complaining about the harm and clamoring for change. > > So that’s why it’s different, to me. So if someone DOES complain and say they are being harmed, would you change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/145 "2016-04-04T14:11:36Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So if someone DOES complain and say they are being harmed, would you change your mind? I would listen to their complaint, look into any evidence and data (and the opinions of others of the same gender or other categorization as the complainer), and consider it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/146 "2016-04-04T14:13:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If this happens almost never, and there’s no reason to believe it will happen more than almost never, then effectively it’s still a ladies room, and will be 99.9% of the time. That’s a cop out. The point is that it’s not possible to simply let people decide. You have to have a policy. If there’s a possibility that a man will be using a women’s room when a woman goes in, it’s not a women’s room at any time. You either have to declare that it is for women only, or not. Just the possibility of a man may use it makes it not private for women who prefer not to be in the company of men in the bathroom - which you have said is okay. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/147 "2016-04-04T14:15:17Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s a cop out. > > The point is that it’s not possible to simply let people decide. You have to have a policy. If there’s a possibility that a man will be using a women’s room when a woman goes in, it’s not a women’s room at any time. You either have to declare that it is for women only, or not. Just the possibility of a man may use it makes it not private for women who prefer not to be in the company of men in the bathroom - which you have said is okay. Why isn’t this possible? This is what’s been happening for decades, if not centuries. Letting people decide has worked and will continue to work 99.9% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/148 "2016-04-04T14:15:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I would listen to their complaint, look into any evidence and data (and the opinions of others of the same gender or other categorization as the complainer), and consider it. This is where I go back into devil’s advocate mode: So why would you not do the same with those who complain about being in the bathroom with a transgender person? (Again, I am not arguing against transgender access to bathrooms of their gender - devil’s advocate, people). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/149 "2016-04-04T14:16:38Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is where I go back into devil’s advocate mode: > > So why would you not do the same with those who complain about being in the bathroom with a transgender person? > > (Again, I am not arguing against transgender access to bathrooms of their gender - devil’s advocate, people). I have done the same, and I have evaluated their complaints as bigoted and not worthy of being respected by policy or practice. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/150 "2016-04-04T14:16:57Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > To segregate the genders. Circular argument. Why segregate genders? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/151 "2016-04-04T14:18:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I imagine you’re a huge hit at parties, doll. I actually am. This is not a party though. I am not here to please you. I am here to challenge you. If you can’t handle it, that’s that. I don’t care about your insults or what you think of me personally. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/152 "2016-04-04T14:20:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > What? > > Oh, you’re doing your “why have gendered bathrooms” tangent again. Can you answer the question? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/153 "2016-04-04T15:10:42Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Can you answer the question? A competing request: can you not? We can have a substantive discussion about the anti-transgender bathroom bills and how to fight them; or we can entertain Lance in his hundredth iteration of, “Dude, I forget, why do we have little boys rooms and little girls rooms?” JAQing again. Ignore him, and maybe he’ll go away, or at least start his own thread to ask his questions that have been answered a hundred times before. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/154 "2016-04-04T15:13:47Z")
As a follow-up: **Una** , I was wondering what you’re hearing trans folk saying about how these sorts of bills are best fought. Do you know of any cases in which lawmakers have actually rescinded their support for these bills after meeting with trans folk? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/155 "2016-04-04T15:23:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A competing request: can you not? We can have a substantive discussion about the anti-transgender bathroom bills and how to fight them; or we can entertain Lance in his hundredth iteration of, “Dude, I forget, why do we have little boys rooms and little girls rooms?” JAQing again. > > Ignore him, and maybe he’ll go away, or at least start his own thread to ask his questions that have been answered a hundred times before. I am having a substantive conversation. If you would STFU and read instead of just assuming that anyone who dares to think deeper is a hateful troll, you might see that. The fact that you clearly don’t understand what I’m saying demonstrates the need for you to do that. If you can’t deal with me, don’t. Others can. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/156 "2016-04-04T15:28:16Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you can’t deal with me, don’t. Others can. You’re low-hanging fruit and tempting to argue with because of that; it feels good to refute someone so easily refuted, even if it derails the conversation. I hope others won’t give into that temptation. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/157 "2016-04-04T15:37:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re low-hanging fruit and tempting to argue with because of that; it feels good to refute someone so easily refuted, even if it derails the conversation. I hope others won’t give into that temptation. If you are not arguing with me, why are you still responding to me? If I’m so easily refuted, why won’t you easily refute me? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/158 "2016-04-04T15:46:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If you are not arguing with me, why are you still responding to me? > > If I’m so easily refuted, why won’t you easily refute me? You have been, over and over again, but _you_ won’t STFU. You are the brat in the back seat going “Why? Why? Why? Why?” just to get a reaction, then feigning surprise when people don’t act like it’s a brand new question. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/159 "2016-04-04T16:09:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I am having a substantive conversation. > > If you would STFU and read instead of just assuming that anyone who dares to think deeper is a hateful troll, you might see that. The fact that you clearly don’t understand what I’m saying demonstrates the need for you to do that. > > If you can’t deal with me, don’t. Others can. Did you miss my responses to you in posts #147 and #149? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831/160 "2016-04-04T16:45:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did you miss my responses to you in posts #147 and #149? iiandyiii, if you genuinely believe that this is the place for this conversation to continue, I guess I can’t stop you. But I encourage you to look at the other things we could discuss here, and I encourage you to focus on them rather than entertaining the same question that’s been explained to death to la in countless other threads. Could I persuade you to not have that conversation again with him here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-people-behind-anti-transgender-bathroom-bills/746831.md?page=9)