# I pit the phrase "Homicide Bomber" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2004, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075 "2004-12-29T08:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/41 "2004-12-29T19:04:42Z")
For people defending the phrase, I got two questions: 1. How does it feel to be defending political correctness it its most naked state? 2. Do you think it is legitimate to have a phrase that refers specifically to people who kill other people by strapping a bomb to their bodies and blowing themselves up? Okay, make it three questions, because I’ve got two followups to question 2 (but you only have to answer one of them) 2a) If not, why shouldn’t the language have such a word? 2b) If so, what term for this type of killer would be **more** accurate than “suicide bomber”? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/42 "2004-12-29T19:07:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, they exist right enough! Legend has it that if you catch one, and keep your left eye closed, you can force him to tell you where he’s hidden his crock o’ shit. “It’s got to be here somewhere…maybe under here?” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/43 "2004-12-29T20:11:55Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Also am I not correct that the “homicide” part helps describe it as a killing of innocent civilians, since a killing of a soldier can’t be termed “homicide”? Yes it can. Homicide simply means the killing of a human being by another human being. There are no moral judgements of guilt or innocence attached to the term. The Death Certificates for people sentenced to death list the cause of death as “homicide.” ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/44 "2004-12-29T20:40:49Z")
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP! I have detested the phrase since I first heard it adopted - O’Reilly, I believe, was where I heard it first, and he had some backwards argument as to why it was a better phrase than “suicide bomber” - something about how the original phrase didn’t accurately describe what was _really_ taking place, IIRC. :rolleyes: It’s really a reactionary kind of thing, which is one reason I don’t like it. It’s as though those that coined the term were sitting around thinking, “How can we really express how much we hate this tactic? How can we make it worse than ever? Wait - I’ve got it! - we’ll call it _homicide_ instead of suicide, and this will make it extra revolting!” Second, it’s redundant, as others have pointed out. A bomber kills and destroys; there’s no further need to elaborate on that fact. Yes, yes - we have other redundant phrases in the language, I know. But, most of these are adopted carelessly and as a matter of form - not created Third - again, as others have pointed out - it’s not as descriptive as “suicide bomber”. Really, is there any further debate here… ? ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/45 "2004-12-29T20:47:29Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Homicide bombers is just so damn redundant. Can you imagine a homicide shooter? Even worse. Imagine if the only time the redundant phrase “homicide shooter” was used was when the shooter ended up killing himself. Otherwise he’s just a shooter. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/46 "2004-12-29T20:47:29Z")
I agree with the people who can’t stand this phrase. It’s very simple to me: “homicide bomber” is redundant; all bombers are homicide bombers. The word “bomber” is adequate to express the homicide part. What’s different about these bombers is that they blow themselves up. Anyway, in French, suicide bombers are _des kamikazes_, tout simplement. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/47 "2004-12-29T20:50:33Z")
See: > [@theslot.com](#): > > Add “homicide bombers” to the “moronic politicization of the language” file. President Bush and his spokesman assert that “suicide bombers” ignores the main intention of the bombings: to kill other people. As if anyone would read “bomber” and think of someone using dynamite to build a tunnel. If you’re buying this crap, you’d better start saying “homicide assassins” and “homicide gunmen” and “homicide hit men,” too. Heck, why not “homicide killers who kill homicidally with intent to commit murder in a not-at-all-friendly fashion”? > > Yes, Mr. President, we know that the bombers are very, very bad people. Perhaps we should call them “dumb stupidhead buttface bombers” to do justice to our ire. But we call them suicide bombers to differentiate them from the equally bad bombers who, like most homicidal types, prefer to live. The suicide part is what’s distinctive about their actions. > > Some say that “suicide” lends an undeserved air of romance to the bombers. I worry about people who think that (to me, “pathetic” comes to mind long before “romantic”), but even if it were true, that impression would come from the act itself, not the accurate description of the act. It might be in the president’s interest to gloss over the facts when describing these atrocities, but accuracy is kind of important in journalistic writing. Is there a more neutral word for suicide than “suicide”? ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/48 "2004-12-29T20:58:06Z")
I agree. Homicide Bomber is a ridiculous phrase, obviously created to remind us that they’re the Bad Guys. However, there are so many other ridiculous things about The Chickenhawk War that Homicide Bomber pales by comparison. For example: Why are they Israeli “soldiers” and Palestinian “gunmen?” Why are they “insurgents” instead of “resistance?” And the whopper: They lied to us to get us into The Chickenhawk War When we called them on it, they admitted that they lied to us to get us into the war. AND WE DON’T CARE! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/49 "2004-12-29T21:05:00Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I just think new terms are cool. (blinking at the sheer purity of its truth) Can’t argue with that. > [@](#): > > Calling your enemies courageous does not mean you’re conceding any moral ground, it just means your work is going to be more difficult. Indeed, it is better to overestimate your enemy than to underestimate him, but try telling the American administration that. No sirree! Those guys are cowards, pure and simple. But that is only one of the self-delusions those guys have operated under. > [@don't ask](#): > > So it isn’t an invention of the media it was created by Republican fiat. Republicans drive Fiats? Or are you saying homicide bombers use them?\* Cuz lemme tell ya, you can fit a whole bunch more explosives in a Ryder truck–just ask Tim McVeigh. But if you have the good stuff instead of crap you made from what you could buy down at the Farm and Fleet maybe… - - Yes, I know Fiats have been used by carbombers but if you Google it you’ll find as many cases of people offering the use of their Fiats as car bombs. And don’t get all huffy about the appropriateness of black humor. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/50 "2004-12-29T21:45:23Z")
“Homicide bomber.” _blink_ Now I really wish we had the opportunity to view FoxNews up here. I mean, we keep hearing these little Orwellian vignettes, but it’s hard to imagine what it must be like to just be flipping through the channels and run into such spectacularly inept propaganda. This is the sort of thing you tend to expect to come out of China. Seriously, what the _fuck?_ ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/51 "2004-12-29T22:45:56Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > For people defending the phrase, I got two questions: > > 1. How does it feel to be defending political correctness it its most naked state? > 2. Do you think it is legitimate to have a phrase that refers specifically to people who kill other people by strapping a bomb to their bodies and blowing themselves up? > > Okay, make it three questions, because I’ve got two followups to question 2 (but you only have to answer one of them) > 2a) If not, why shouldn’t the language have such a word? > 2b) If so, what term for this type of killer would be **more** accurate than “suicide bomber”? 1. How do you feel about kicking your wife? 2. Yes. But lets just not pretend it’s the mother of all inventions. 2b) “homicide bomber” better describes intent. “suicide bomber” better describe method. “homicide bomber” is criminal awkward and moreso that the likewise awkward “suicide bomber”, I just fail to see mortal offence of it – and I suppose “suicide bomber” was also awkward when the term first appeared (which was when exactly?). I disagree “bomber” automatically describes intent to murder, thus “homicide bomber” is not necessarily redundant and more descriptive in some ways, “suicide bomber” in other ways. But “suicide bomber” works for me, because we all already assume a “suicide bomber” is a person who deliberately try to murder civilians – which really is unfair to the suicide bombers who only target troops. Also “suicide bomber” has its share of problems too. It doesn’t describe intent very well. And it is becoming increasingly clear that many “suicide bombers” (so-called) were forced, threatened or heavily pressured to the act. A suicide can hardly be described thus if it wasn’t freely done so. Others were bribed to the act. So what do we call a person who was tied to the wheel of the car with the explosives, or who’s family was threatened with murder? (google has the first instance of “suicide bomber” at 1985 re. the Hetzbolla bombing of the marine barracks in Beirut. But that might be just because their records don’t go further back) [dropzone, am I being whoosed?](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fiat) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/52 "2004-12-29T23:10:18Z")
There’s nothing awkward about “suicide bomber.” It’s perfectly descriptive and accurate. “Homicide bomber” is awkward and stupid because it’s redundant. Itr’s like saying “homicide sniper” or “homicide poisoner.” The intent goes without saying. It’s just a gutless, dishonest manipulation of the language by a right-wing proganda outlet posing as a “news” network. The fact that these bombers are deliberately killing _themselves_ is germane to the story and it’s dishonest almost to the point of corruption to ignore it. It’s spin. It’s editorializing. It’s LYING. Fucking weasels. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/53 "2004-12-29T23:27:55Z")
Amazing. I had no idea that anyone had revived this phrase, which was briefly used by the W administration a couple of years ago… but even they abandoned it rather quickly. For all I knew, it had gone the way of “freedom fries” (newspeak for “French fries”) I don’t watch Fox News (or any network news, come to that) so I wasn’t aware they were using the phrase. I knew they were Bush shills without a shred of journalistic integrity, but really, this kind of PC jargon is just juvenile and silly. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/54 "2004-12-30T00:50:56Z")
I gotta echo **Sample\_the\_Dog** , here. Coupla things: when Faux News reports on a “homicide bombing,” what do they have to say about the local constabulary’s search for the “homicide bomber”, and the expectations of apprehension of a suspect? Also: I understand that the latest investigations of the recent mess tent explosion near Mosul are suggesting that the culprit was not a rocket as originally suspected, but the work of a person wearing a bomb. I also understand that Faux News is referring to the culprit as a [“homicide bomber.”](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142703,00.html) Given the military character of the target, **Rune** do you wish to stand by your rationalization that the term properly and validly refers to a bomber who detonates a device with the intent to kill civilians? ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/55 "2004-12-30T00:54:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The problem is it’s redundant, and it implies that there’s another type of bomber, the type of bomber that doesn’t commit homicides. Actually, the first time I noticed “homicide bomber” it was in reference to a suicide bombing in which the only person injured or killed was the human munition. I don’t remember if it was Fox, but it struck me as extremely odd. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/56 "2004-12-30T00:57:56Z")
I prefer “Imbecile Bomber”. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/57 "2004-12-30T05:03:02Z")
As clumsy as “homicide-bomber” is, I think the reason that people use the term to differentiate it from “suicide-bomber” is because some some factions associate “suicide” with martyrdom. As in, “One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.” Homicide-bomber is an attempt to illustrate that the bombers aren’t making great sacrifices to further a belief, cause, or principle, but are simply murderers. There’s no martyrdom, or principle, involved. In fact, I say we scrap both “homicide-bombers” and “suicide-bombers”, and replace the terms with murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/58 "2004-12-30T05:47:17Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > Homicide-bomber is an attempt to illustrate that the bombers aren’t making great sacrifices to further a belief, cause, or principle, but are simply murderers. There’s no martyrdom, or principle, involved. Except the are making great sacrifices. These dudes are willing to kill themselves. Not put their lives on the line, flat out kill themselves. That’s an important fact to know about the mindset of our enemies. We can debate about whether that’s borne from desperation, conviction, or sheer madness, but we must recognize that they value their own lives less than the chance to kill us. > [@](#): > > In fact, I say we scrap both “homicide-bombers” and “suicide-bombers”, and replace the terms with murderers. Well, that’s accurate (usually, I’m not sure I’d call an assualt on a military target in warime murder, but I’ll give), but not at all useful. “Suicide Bombers” tells that A: There was a bomb B: The bombers took their own lives. Homicide Bombers loses point B. Murderers loses both. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075/59 "2004-12-30T14:10:35Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > 1. How do you feel about kicking your wife? Since I don’t, it’s an incoherent question. However, I cannot think of a more blatant example of political correctness than the phrase “homicide bomber.” > [@](#): > > 1. Yes. But lets just not pretend it’s the mother of all inventions. Yes, let’s not. Who is? > [@](#): > > 2b) “homicide bomber” better describes intent. “suicide bomber” better describe method. The intent of homicide is kinda included in the “bomber” word. So I disagree that “homicide bomber” better describes intent: when we hear “bomber,” **unless** the term is qualified, we can safely assume intent to commit homicide. > [@](#): > > I disagree “bomber” automatically describes intent to murder, Nobody said it does: homicide and murder are different. Almost all bombings are carried out with intent to commit homicide, and it’s bizarre political correct contortionism to suggest otherwise. > [@](#): > > Also “suicide bomber” has its share of problems too. It doesn’t describe intent very well. And it is becoming increasingly clear that many “suicide bombers” (so-called) were forced, threatened or heavily pressured to the act. A suicide can hardly be described thus if it wasn’t freely done so. Others were bribed to the act. So what do we call a person who was tied to the wheel of the car with the explosives, or who’s family was threatened with murder? As to the first part, it DOES describe intent: the “bomber” part covers that nicely. Your second part is an interesting point: I agree that if a bomb is strapped to someone who’s coerced into the act, it’s incorrect to call them a suicide bomber, and another term (not homicide bomber) is more appropriate. Maybe call them a human bomb? However, bribery, brainwashing, etc. shouldn’t be considered: nobody claims the crazy Haley-Bopp cult people didn’t commit suicide, despite all the brainwashing there. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-phrase-homicide-bomber/282075.md?page=2)