# I Pit the Pope

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [November 16, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775 "2017-11-16T16:38:33Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 3

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/41 "2017-11-17T03:03:14Z")

</div>

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> 😕 “Wasn’t happening”? Do you seriously imagine that this sort of last-ditch painful prolongation of dying by excessive medical intervention hasn’t been a genuine problem in end-of-life medical care?

I’ll admit what I should have said was it’s happening less and less and we are getting better at managing it the more we learn about it. I guess maybe there’d be less left to learn if we nudge the death goalpost nearer, so that’s a plus.

Must to nice to be able to judge the veracity of life itself sight-unseen. Establishing a mindset leaning in any direction is simply illogical. Every case is different.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/42 "2017-11-17T03:08:13Z")

</div>

> [@Smapti](#):
>
> No, it means the same amount of death, spaced out differently.

Riiiiight. Timing really “is” everything now isn’t it? :rolleyes:

> [@Smapti](#):
>
> …is reiterating what Pius XII said on the subject - withdrawl from treatment is neither euthanasia nor suicide.

There’s lots of terms for killing people people. The sooner the better, I suppose then.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/43 "2017-11-17T03:11:57Z")

</div>

> [@BeenJammin](#):
>
> There’s lots of terms for killing people people. The sooner the better, I suppose then.

Let’s say I’m in the final stages of cancer. I can do another round of chemo and maybe get another month or so of living in extreme agony, or I can turn down the chemo, get doped up on fentanyl, and ride out my last days with a modicum of comfort and dignity.

If I choose the latter, who is “killing” me?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/44 "2017-11-17T03:34:24Z")

</div>

> [@Smapti](#):
>
> If I choose the latter, who is “killing” me?

Yeah, killing is so execution-style. Maybe I should have been more secular with something like “invoking death?”  
(cue ominous church organ)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/45 "2017-11-17T03:40:58Z")

</div>

> [@BeenJammin](#):
>
> Yeah, killing is so execution-style. Maybe I should have been more secular with something like “invoking death?”  
> (cue ominous church organ)

That’s not an answer.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/46 "2017-11-17T04:14:15Z")

</div>

**BeenJammin** despises the Pope;  
Says “Listen to him? Nuh-uh! Nope!”  
His argument’s pap;  
His writing is crap  
This Doper is really a dope.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/47 "2017-11-17T04:14:46Z")

</div>

> [@BeenJammin](#):
>
> And I’ll take this opportunity to remind you of the title of the goshdang article: “Pope Francis calls European physicians to morally withdraw from ‘overzealous treatment.”

News article titles are notoriously imperfect approximations to the content of the articles. The Pope sent a message to a pontifical academy and an archbishop as well as to a confederation of medical associations meeting to discuss end-of-life issues.

Like it or not, about one of every six people in the world is Catholic. End-of-life medical care is indeed hugely important to patients and their families, and their decisions about it are often crucially influenced by religious belief and institutions. It makes no sense at all for the leader of the Catholic faith **not** to tell doctors, and the world in general, what Catholic doctrine is on these issues.

> [@BeenJammin](#):
>
> […] it’s happening less and less and we are getting better at managing it the more we learn about it.

:dubious: Cite that problems due to excessive medical intervention in end-of-life care are in fact “happening less and less”? And who do you think are the “we” who end up “managing” these situations in reality?

When I was in the hospital with my dying mother almost exactly a year ago, after she had finally been able to talk the doctors into giving her the terminal morphine sedation that she wanted in preference to the constant pain and helplessness, I heard some real horror stories from the nurses about the prolonged agonies of some terminal patients due to treatments insisted on by well-meaning relatives who simply couldn’t bear to think that they might not be “doing everything that could be done”.

Families have a terrifying amount of power to prolong the suffering of the dying, because they’re not the ones feeling the physical pain, they’re reluctant to let go of their loved one, and they generally have a very minimal understanding of the medical facts. If some of those people are encouraged to think about these issues more carefully because of something the Pope said, then good for him.

> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Quite a lot of the people disagreeing with you on this are atheists, you know.

In fact, has anyone posted here so far who **isn’t** an atheist?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/48 "2017-11-17T04:24:10Z")

</div>

And just a note on style. If you’re going to swear, fucking swear. “Goldangits” and “Dagnabbits” and “Tarnations” are for little kids.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/49 "2017-11-17T04:29:33Z")

</div>

> [@jayjay](#):
>
> And just a note on style. If you’re going to swear, fucking swear. “Goldangits” and “Dagnabbits” and “Tarnations” are for little kids.

Aw, consarnit!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/50 "2017-11-17T06:35:48Z")

</div>

> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> But I don’t see anything at all to object to in his statement, and it’s a good thing for the Catholic church to move away from it’s old position that you had to essentially keep torturing a terminally ill patient for as long as possible to be a good person.

That’s never been a Church position. A position of some Church members, yes; the official position, no.

> [@Ulfreida](#):
>
> LOTS of them, actually.

Is that a joke? 😕

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/51 "2017-11-17T08:22:36Z")

</div>

Stupid poster makes stupid thread.  
Other posters call it stupid.  
Stupid poster whines.  
I foresee stupid poster not lasting very long. Oh how I wish I could change how certain posters’ names appeared. I’d have “Whataboutist Goatfucker”, “Proof Of De-Evolution”, “One-Liner Idiot”, and, now, “Stupid Poster”.  
vBulletin, MAKE IT HAPPEN!

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/52 "2017-11-17T13:00:18Z")

</div>

> [@Chisquirrel](#):
>
> Stupid poster makes stupid thread.  
> Other posters call it stupid.  
> Stupid poster whines.  
> I foresee stupid poster not lasting very long. Oh how I wish I could change how certain posters’ names appeared. I’d have “Whataboutist Goatfucker”, “Proof Of De-Evolution”, “One-Liner Idiot”, and, now, “Stupid Poster”.  
> vBulletin, MAKE IT HAPPEN!

All you need is a short hop in the [Not-That-Wayback Machine.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=702824)

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/53 "2017-11-17T13:45:25Z")

</div>

This is going well.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/54 "2017-11-17T15:46:13Z")

</div>

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> When I was in the hospital with my dying mother almost exactly a year ago, after she had finally been able to talk the doctors into giving her the terminal morphine sedation that she wanted in preference to the constant pain and helplessness, I heard some real horror stories from the nurses about the prolonged agonies of some terminal patients due to treatments insisted on by well-meaning relatives who simply couldn’t bear to think that they might not be “doing everything that could be done”.
> 
> Families have a terrifying amount of power to prolong the suffering of the dying, because they’re not the ones feeling the physical pain, they’re reluctant to let go of their loved one, and they generally have a very minimal understanding of the medical facts. If some of those people are encouraged to think about these issues more carefully because of something the Pope said, then good for him.

It sounds like you and I were going through almost the same thing at almost the same time. We had similar discussions with my father. He had deteriorated so much that he couldn’t even watch TV, since, as he told me, he couldn’t concentrate well enough to follow the story. This from a man who was always one of the smartest guys in the room. And on his last Saturday, he spent most of the day in agony because his cancer was interfering with his bladder, and trying to urinate was incredibly painful and difficult. What would be the point of expecting him to endure that any longer than necessary? The end result was no longer in doubt, it was just a matter of how much suffering he would undergo.

> [@](#):
>
> In fact, has anyone posted here so far who **isn’t** an atheist?

I’m one, but I was raised Catholic, and lots of my relatives still are. And as I posted earlier, exactly these issues caused some disruption for my mother at a time when she really didn’t need that added trouble. I could wish that the Pope had said this years ago, but at least now, maybe other families won’t have to worry as much about it.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/55 "2017-11-17T16:05:59Z")

</div>

> [@Nava](#):
>
> That’s never been a Church position. A position of some Church members, yes; the official position, no.

I’ve never accepted the bullshit Catholic idea that positions pushed onto people by Church officials and adopted by the church in it’s endeavors and not condemned by higher church officials don’t count as a “Church position” just because the higher ups don’t explicitly endorse them. As far as I’m concerned, anything that Church officials do that isn’t at least as decried by the church as living life as a gay man counts as a Church position to me. When Catholics decide to stop claiming that the Pope speaks directly to God, I’ll cut them some slack on allowing difference of opinion for people, but God’s word is God’s word, you don’t get to hide behind technicalities.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/56 "2017-11-17T16:55:37Z")

</div>

I’m only socially Catholic any more, but I’ve know that extra-ordinary means to sustain life were not required for what seems like most of my life (and certainly the last 30 years or so).

Now, there may have been discussion as to what constitutes ‘extra-ordinary’, but certainly artificial respiration was not required (but allowed) by any authority I ever heard of.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/57 "2017-11-17T16:59:19Z")

</div>

> [@Pantastic](#):
>
> I’m a full-on anti-Catholic and think that most of the ‘look how reasonable the Pope is’ stuff is based on vapid PR statements and not actual Church policy, and I’ve even been in an argumentative thread on here where I’ve said I don’t think he’s a good person because of how he would treat people close to me given the chance. But I don’t see anything at all to object to in his statement, and it’s a good thing for the Catholic church to move away from it’s old position that you had to essentially keep torturing a terminally ill patient for as long as possible to be a good person. Keeping the shell of a person alive with extreme life support measures that leave them no quality of life is not a good thing.

This. It has never been (far as I know) any sort of “official policy” to use “heroic” or overzealous measures. It has always been intended to preserve life when possible, and to ease suffering at the very least. It was never meant to force the “maintenance” of vegetables and terminal people who want to refuse extreme measures (effectively life support for an empty husk).

The position was while suicide or deliberate euthanasia were frowned upon, knowing when to let go, was a kindness.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/58 "2017-11-17T17:01:04Z")

</div>

> [@jz78817](#):
>
> I’m not sure I understand people who thought this guy was going to completely up-end Church doctrine. It’d be like buying a yellow Camaro and complaining that it won’t transform into a giant robot.
> 
> I mean, there are Catholics who are still bitter about _Vatican II_ fercryinoutloud.

Some probably are mad they can’t talk Latin and burn heretics or witches anymore too 😃

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/59 "2017-11-17T17:50:39Z")

</div>

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> When I was in the hospital with my dying mother almost exactly a year ago, after she had finally been able to talk the doctors into giving her the terminal morphine sedation that she wanted in preference to the constant pain and helplessness, I heard some real horror stories from the nurses about the prolonged agonies of some terminal patients due to treatments insisted on by well-meaning relatives who simply couldn’t bear to think that they might not be “doing everything that could be done”.

“That’s ‘modern medicine.’ Advances that keep people alive who should have died a _loooong_ time ago.”

- Dr. Percival Cox

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![BeenJammin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beenjammin/32/448_2.png) [@BeenJammin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeenJammin)\
**Post date:** [November 17, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775/60 "2017-11-17T20:05:50Z")

</div>

> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> …they might not be “doing everything that could be done”.

The issue is doing everything that _should_ be done, and the Pope’s policy is we should be doing less.

Of course, how much less, exactly what to leave out and when to or not to do something are trivial details best left up to the people who have struggled with this issue from time immemorial.

I really don’t understand how people don’t get this concept. Try this new term for it on for size: Church overreach. That’s a pretty simple summary of the new Catholic EOL medical position.

So does this apply to all clinically-induced suffering, or only that being endured by Catholics?

[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775.md?page=2)

[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-pope/801775.md?page=4)