# I pit the President for making the same excuse again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864 "2014-05-20T21:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/201 "2014-05-26T10:36:18Z")
The VA has problems that appear to me to be that there are more clients than they can properly service. Perhaps some thought about why that is so and how to prevent that in future? Perhaps some thinking about whether congress funds the VA adequately? This generation of soldier has a far higher percentage of PTSD results, according to all the news stories the last several years. Many more psychiatric problems than ever before. Presidents, going forward, are going to be inclined to use remote ways of expressing our military force, largely because the effect of combat on Americans is becoming more and more a matter of extreme psychiatric reaction to it? To me, Obama, by refraining from using American troops on the ground, is doing a great job of fixing the VA problems, the thing a President can control. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/202 "2014-05-26T10:38:49Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The oldest a Presidency can get, by Constitutional definition, is 8 years. Nitpick: the maximum possible length of a Presidency is ten years. Per the 22nd Amendment, a veep who succeeds to the Presidency when the President dies, resigns, or is impeached and removed from office, can be elected to the Presidency twice on his own account if he’s served two years or less of his/her predecessor’s term. For instance, LBJ was not barred by the Constitution from being re-elected in 1968. But since Obama began his Presidency by being elected rather than by finishing someone else’s term, the maximum possible length of _his_ Presidency is eight years. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/203 "2014-05-26T11:02:27Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > The VA has problems that appear to me to be that there are more clients than they can properly service. Perhaps some thought about why that is so and how to prevent that in future? Perhaps some thinking about whether congress funds the VA adequately? > > . the President expanded eligibility, which increased the VA’s workload. He also secured a lot more funding for it. The problem is that he only did step#1, which was Congress’ responsibility anyway(they set funding levels, not the President). The President never insured that the VA was handling its expanded mission or spending its new resources wisely. Nor did he investigate the drip, drip, drip of reports of falsifying wait times that were brought to the White House’s attention over the last few years. The LA Times did, plus whistleblowers went to the media because the administration was ignoring them. It’s plausible that he himself hadn’t heard about the problems, but if so, it’s only because his close advisors decided to keep it from him, as they did with the IRS issue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/204 "2014-05-26T11:05:06Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’d also note, iiandyi, that reactive managers aren’t considered all that great either. What jumping into a problem when it becomes serious enough to warrant media attention and fixing it shows is that if Obama wanted to, he could become a skilled manager. But he just can’t be bothered. A good manager creates solid lines of communication up and down the organization so that problems can be brought to his attention and solved before they draw scrutiny from the outside. If Obama spends the next three years putting out fires from various departments, he won’t exactly go down in history as an effective President. Although he will go down in history as not quite as bad as George Bush, which at this point seems to be the best his fans can hope for. God you’re full of shit. You’re just so damn obvious and negative. If Obama fixes the VA long-term, then that will go down as one of the greatest managerial accomplishments of any recent President. That would be a big fucking deal. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/205 "2014-05-26T11:06:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Of course, now Democrats have lost the competence issue. Plus I wouldn’t put too much faith in Democrats’ ability to keep us out of costly wars. Bush aside, Democrats have historically been far more interventionist and it’s only dumb luck since the Cold War ended that we haven’t gotten embroiled in quagmires on their watch. But don’t worry, his Presidency is still young! More fact-free ridiculousness. Keep fucking that chicken, **adaher**. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/206 "2014-05-26T11:11:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why you came in right when I cited several non-partisan or liberal columnists observing the President was incompetent. No, they observed that there’s a media narrative. Which, like most media narratives, is not exactly based on facts. **adaher** is wrong again. Even with cites! > [@](#): > > Not that it matters, the President remains incompetent regardless of what I post here. Don’t you project your insecurities and inadequacies on our Commander-in-Chief! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/207 "2014-05-26T11:14:41Z")
[Here](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/subjects/veterans/) is Obama’s record on promises he’s made for the VA and Veterans. Not perfect, but pretty damn impressive. And there’s lots more work to do. **adaher** is completely full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/208 "2014-05-26T11:27:53Z")
Glad there’s at least one staunch defender of the President here. If the President fixes the VA, then it does prove that when he tries, he does a good job. It’s just that normally Presidents shouldn’t be needed to be prodded by the media to do their basic job. Obama seems to think he has a higher purpose. It’s beneath him to wade into actual work. That’s what he has subordinates for. As for the media narrative, it’s nearly unanimous, and accurate. He’s incompetent, or at least lazy. You can quibble with me over the details, but in the end, he’s still a failure, at least at this point in his Presidency. Maybe he’ll do great things to turn the ship around over the next 2 1/2 years. Or perhaps we’ll be seeing more of these bureaucratic scandals. At which point would you finally admit that he’s a shitty leader? The tenth time his own government fails him? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/209 "2014-05-26T11:38:01Z")
He’s a floor wax, or at least a dessert topping. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/210 "2014-05-26T11:54:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > As for the media narrative, it’s nearly unanimous, and accurate. He’s incompetent, or at least lazy. You can quibble with me over the details, but in the end, he’s still a failure, at least at this point in his Presidency. Maybe he’ll do great things to turn the ship around over the next 2 1/2 years. Or perhaps we’ll be seeing more of these bureaucratic scandals. At which point would you finally admit that he’s a shitty leader? The tenth time his own government fails him? Every single statement here is factually incorrect. The opinions are stupid opinions. Wrong about everything. It’s like a tic or something. It’s clear that real-world politics is just beyond you, **adaher**. You should stick to simple issues. You just can’t process nuance. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/211 "2014-05-26T12:08:03Z")
I guess nuance means that you will avoid ever answering the question about what you’d have to see to finally believe that the President is incompetent. Because I think you know as well as I do that the VA isn’t the last of these scandals. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/212 "2014-05-26T12:14:01Z")
As someone who gets all of her health care – physical and behavioral – through the VA system, and as someone who knows what the President’s cabinet is for, it’s very clear to me that **adaher** doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. Next, I’ll post about how the Pope is Catholic, that bears shit in the woods, and other blinding flashes of the obvious. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/213 "2014-05-26T12:15:23Z")
And have you ever seen a media narrative like this? He’s getting this reputation because these things keep on happening and his response is always exactly the same: “Whaaaa?”, followed by “I’m mad as hell!”(he isn’t actually, he even lies about that), followed by a shortcut fix or waiting for enough time to pass and deciding it wasn’t a big deal anyway. Well, this particular scandal isn’t amenable to shortcut fixes like the website was(it’s still not fully operational in case you didn’t know), nor is anyone ever going to regard this as not a big deal. So it’ll be interesting to see what tricks he has up his sleeve. YOu seem to have faith that he can fix the VA. Sure, if he spends nearly all of his next 2 1/2 years on it and does nothing else. It would also help if he signs the Republican bill to fire VA managers easier. Which he opposes, which demonstrates where his priorities lay. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/214 "2014-05-26T12:17:13Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > As someone who gets all of her health care – physical and behavioral – through the VA system, and as someone who knows what the President’s cabinet is for, it’s very clear to me that **adaher** doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. Okay, so if I delegate a task to someone, and he fails at that task, then the person responsible is? I seem to recall that Democrats gleefully questioned Rudy Giuliani’s judgement in the Bernard Kerik case. And that was just one guy! Obama’s surrounded by idiots, but somehow it’s everyone else’s fault. Y’all are pathetic, and for my next trick I’ll post that bears shit in the woods. Buncha sychophants for a guy you don’t even know personally. utterly pathetic and you should all be embarrassed. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/215 "2014-05-26T12:35:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Okay, so if I delegate a task to someone, and he fails at that task, then the person responsible is? > > I seem to recall that Democrats gleefully questioned Rudy Giuliani’s judgement in the Bernard Kerik case. And that was just one guy! Obama’s surrounded by idiots, but somehow it’s everyone else’s fault. > > Y’all are pathetic, and for my next trick I’ll post that bears shit in the woods. Buncha sychophants for a guy you don’t even know personally. utterly pathetic and you should all be embarrassed. Of course I expect the President to be held accountable for the job of his subordinates, and that includes Secretary Shinseki. However, Secretary Shinseki is doing a fantastic job at the VA, and he should be retained. If he leaves, it should be by his choice, not at the behest of an angry mob with pitchforks and torches, most of the members of which have no damn clue. Secretary Shinseki didn’t cause the problems within the VA system, and he can’t control the day-to-day operations and behaviors at individual facilities. He can, however, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and _he needs to be given the opportunity to do so_. This involves a culture change at the VA, but it also involves making sure the ground-level resources, such as clinical staff and equipment, are available, and it’s his job to see that that happens. The VA care that’s available to all veterans is generally a hell of a lot better than the care available in the civilian marketplace, so they’re doing something right. Do they fuck up from time to time? Absolutely. Does this mean burn the VA to ashes and then burn the ashes and salt the earth? No, it doesn’t. It means fix the problems and move on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/216 "2014-05-26T12:49:55Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Of course I expect the President to be held accountable for the job of his subordinates, and that includes Secretary Shinseki. However, Secretary Shinseki is doing a fantastic job at the VA, and he should be retained. If he leaves, it should be by his choice, not at the behest of an angry mob with pitchforks and torches, most of the members of which have no damn clue. I agree with you 100% there. I don’t think the President should resign either. I don’t think we have any disagreements on what should happen going forward. What we seem to disagree on is whether the President should be more proactive, or whether he should just give speeches as his full time job and leave the governing to the experts. Problem is, the experts aren’t all experts and they aren’t all full of good intentions, so oversight is required. Preferably, Congress and the President are supposed to find out about this stuff before the media. The media’s beaten him to problems in his own administration often enough that he might want to be a more hands-on guy. > [@](#): > > Secretary Shinseki didn’t cause the problems within the VA system, and he can’t control the day-to-day operations and behaviors at individual facilities. He can, however, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and _he needs to be given the opportunity to do so_. This involves a culture change at the VA, but it also involves making sure the ground-level resources, such as clinical staff and equipment, are available, and it’s his job to see that that happens. > > The VA care that’s available to all veterans is generally a hell of a lot better than the care available in the civilian marketplace, so they’re doing something right. Do they fuck up from time to time? Absolutely. Does this mean burn the VA to ashes and then burn the ashes and salt the earth? No, it doesn’t. It means fix the problems and move on. And in the meantime, stop piling on new work for them to do. Shinseki is just as guilty as the President. He commanded that wait times be no more than X and since this was a bureaucracy rather than an armored division they dealt with it by faking paperwork. What concerns me is that they haven’t yet admitted that maybe they shouldn’t have expanded eligibilty when they knew the VA couldn’t handle the workload it had. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/217 "2014-05-26T13:07:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree with you 100% there. I don’t think the President should resign either. I don’t think we have any disagreements on what should happen going forward. > > What we seem to disagree on is whether the President should be more proactive, or whether he should just give speeches as his full time job and leave the governing to the experts. Problem is, the experts aren’t all experts and they aren’t all full of good intentions, so oversight is required. Preferably, Congress and the President are supposed to find out about this stuff before the media. The media’s beaten him to problems in his own administration often enough that he might want to be a more hands-on guy. > > And in the meantime, stop piling on new work for them to do. Shinseki is just as guilty as the President. He commanded that wait times be no more than X and since this was a bureaucracy rather than an armored division they dealt with it by faking paperwork. > > What concerns me is that they haven’t yet admitted that maybe they shouldn’t have expanded eligibilty when they knew the VA couldn’t handle the workload it had. Let me spell it out for you so you understand. I’ll use big type and small words to make it easier for you. You can’t fix a problem until you know it exists. Local management at VA facilities lied and gave bad information that senior officials needed to be able to make decisions. As far as the senior officials knew, everything was fine because the information they got from local VAs said so, and they had no way of knowing that local management lied to them. Get it now, dipshit? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/218 "2014-05-26T13:59:27Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > You can’t fix a problem until you know it exists. Local management at VA facilities lied and gave bad information that senior officials needed to be able to make decisions. As far as the senior officials knew, everything was fine because the information they got from local VAs said so, and they had no way of knowing that local management lied to them. Wow, that font size was obnoxious. And that gag is really getting old. Anyway, you’re wrong. Or you’ve at least over-simplified. The executive branch is, in its essence, an administrative function. Obama is the Chief Executive, after all. And I haven’t read the whole thread, but I do agree with the notion that his administration seems to be the amateur hour. Lots of smart people, who give clever speeches. But they don’t seem to know how to run shit, which is a shame when that’s your primary charge. Back to your post: It is management’s job to uncover problems, to monitor processes in a manner that minimize the possibility of fraud, to audit data and outputs, and to proactively ensure that such things don’t occur. It’s their business to know such things. Certainly no person or organization is perfect, and we ought to learn from such things. But to absolve them of responsibility because “they didn’t know about it yet” is yet again a misunderstanding of what administrative leadership is. It’s really hard to run a large bureaucracy, and IMO, we’re seeing the natural outcome of installing leadership who had no real experience doing so. Who audits their stuff? Do they survey a sample of their clients afterward asking key questions to determine if the answers are consistent with what the records show? I used to run an internal audit team, and I bet you it would take me about an hour to develop an audit plan that would have uncovered this. It’s not rocket science, and no one need wait for something to happen before they do something. And good management doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/219 "2014-05-26T14:16:05Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Let me spell it out for you so you understand. I’ll use big type and small words to make it easier for you. > > You can’t fix a problem until you know it exists. Local management at VA facilities lied and gave bad information that senior officials needed to be able to make decisions. As far as the senior officials knew, everything was fine because the information they got from local VAs said so, and they had no way of knowing that local management lied to them. > > Get it now, dipshit? That would be impressive if you were right. Problem is, you’re wrong. The White House was told directly by a Congressman last year exactly what was going on. They took no action. Before that, there were small snippets of information reaching them that this was happening. They took no action. Last month, it was first reported that this was happening in a major media outlet. They took no action. It wasn’t until it became a political firestorm covered by all of the media that the President gave it his attention. I recall that in Aug. 2001, President Bush received a memo stating, “Al Qaeda determined to attack US.” He was roundly criticized for not acting and stopping what occurred a month later. This despite the very general nature of the memo and the short time he had to act on it. Meanwhile, the current President was told last year, SPECIFICALLY, what was going on by a Congressman. What did he do with that information? Nada. Get it now? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/220 "2014-05-26T14:17:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Who audits their stuff? Do they survey a sample of their clients afterward asking key questions to determine if the answers are consistent with what the records show? I used to run an internal audit team, and I bet you it would take me about an hour to develop an audit plan that would have uncovered this. It’s not rocket science, and no one need wait for something to happen before they do something. And good management doesn’t. I think that we should all at least have been able to agree that the media shouldn’t be better at finding this stuff out than administration officials. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=12)