# I pit the President for making the same excuse again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864 "2014-05-20T21:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/241 "2014-05-27T17:14:09Z")
Iiandyii, what I said “specific” I was referring to the comparison between the very general memo Bush received about al Qaeda in Aug. 2001 vs. the very detailed letter the President got highlighting widespread corruption and mismanagement in the VA. It’s entirely fair to ask what actions were taken in response to that letter over the last year. Now of course I’m sure the President will say he never saw it, so we’ll want to know who made the call to keep it from him and that person will of course need to resign. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/242 "2014-05-27T17:20:59Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s entirely fair to ask what actions were taken in response to that letter over the last year. Sure, this is fair. If that’s all you were doing, then maybe you wouldn’t be constantly ridiculed for factual wrongness. > [@](#): > > Now of course I’m sure the President will say he never saw it If you’re sure of it, then it’s probably false. Yeah, I’m pretty sure the President has not said he never saw this letter. > [@](#): > > so we’ll want to know who made the call to keep it from him and that person will of course need to resign. Keep fucking that invisible chicken. I’m sure the rest of us will see it eventually, if you just do it hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/243 "2014-05-27T17:25:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sure, this is fair. If that’s all you were doing, then maybe you wouldn’t be constantly ridiculed for factual wrongness. I don’t particularly care. It doesn’t make the President anymore competent, and that’s what the thread is about. The fact that people would rather focus on things I say that don’t even affect the central point of this thread says to me they don’t want to grapple with the issue. which is fine, I can do entertainment too. > [@](#): > > If you’re sure of it, then it’s probably false. Yeah, I’m pretty sure the President has not said he never saw this letter. The media hasn’t asked him to account for it yet. Maybe it’ll happen, maybe it won’t. There’s no answer to that question though that will be good, though, unless he’s been working on a secret plan to improve the VA that’s achieved amazing results which have not yet been publicized. More likely, either he didn’t see it because it was deliberately kept from him(which has happened to him before), or he did see it and took no action. Given that he did not initially take action to press stories a month ago about the VA, it’s probably the latter. He doesn’t do his job unless the media takes a virtual cattle prod to him. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/244 "2014-05-27T17:25:40Z")
[Veterans’ groups tear Sen. Richard Burr (R.-NC) a new one](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/27/1302271/-Veterans-groups-blast-Sen-Richard-Burr-after-he-tries-to-scold-them-on-V-A-responses?detail=hide) > [@](#): > > for his open letter claiming that they hadn’t called for Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki’s resignation because they were too “interested in defending the status quo within V.A., protecting their relationships within the agency, and securing their access to the secretary and his inner circle.” In reply: > [@](#): > > “For years, the V.F.W. has come to Congress with hat in hand, and for years we’ve heard the same old story,” the heads of the veterans group wrote to Mr. Burr. “You can be assured, Senator, that you’ve done a superb job in showing us the error in our ways. You can also be assured that in the future, we will spend a substantial percentage of our time seeking to inform our members and our constituents of the repeated failure to act by our elected officials.” > To that sentiment, the national president and the executive director of the Paralyzed Veterans of America added, “Perhaps you should have shared with all veterans in your ‘open’ letter that you cared so much about their health care that you were not actually present during the testimony that the V.S.O. representatives provided, and you did not ask a single question.” V.S.O. stands for veterans service organizations. And it gets even better after that. So why the fuss? > [@](#): > > Remember, the howling Republican outrage over problems at the V.A. is coming just months after they filibustered better health care for veterans. That bill “would have bolstered health and dental care, authorized 27 new clinics and medical facilities, added to veterans education programs, and dealt with veterans who suffered sexual trauma while in the military.” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/245 "2014-05-27T17:28:04Z")
Uh huh. And what else did it do, and how was it to be paid for. YOu know how legislation works, the Democrats voted against a bill to deny sexual predators Viagra under ACA. > **[Dems reject amendment to ban Viagra for sex offenders - Live Pulse -...](https://www.politico.com/livepulse/0310/Dems_reject_amendment_to_ban_Viagra_for_sex_offenders.html)** > > Political news coverage from POLITICO.com on Congress and Capitol Hill. Blog postings in Politico Live from John Bresnahan, Patrick O'Connor, Josephine Hearn, Daniel W. Reilly, and Josh Kraushaar. Complete coverage of Iraq, Immigration, House and... ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/246 "2014-05-27T17:32:37Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Uh huh. And what else did it do, and how was it to be paid for. Do your own fact-checking, partisan hack. > [@](#): > > YOu know how legislation works, the Democrats voted against a bill to deny sexual predators Viagra under ACA. And your own cite explains why. You really ought to try reading a little more, yanno. Might learn something. Might not, sure, but it’s the only way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/247 "2014-05-27T17:33:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t particularly care. It doesn’t make the President anymore competent, and that’s what the thread is about. The fact that people would rather focus on things I say that don’t even affect the central point of this thread says to me they don’t want to grapple with the issue. which is fine, I can do entertainment too. It certainly does affect your central point, because most of the supposed ‘evidence’ you’ve posted to support your argument has been false. > [@](#): > > The media hasn’t asked him to account for it yet. Maybe it’ll happen, maybe it won’t. There’s no answer to that question though that will be good, though, unless he’s been working on a secret plan to improve the VA that’s achieved amazing results which have not yet been publicized. So, yet again, your post is criticized and you immediately back off. Here’s an idea – _don’t post stuff unless you actually believe it strongly enough to not immediately back off once you’re challenged_. > [@](#): > > More likely, either he didn’t see it because it was deliberately kept from him(which has happened to him before), or he did see it and took no action. Or he saw it and took some actions, which included (as Congressman Miller later said) directing VA leadership to send a response to Miller detailing the progress that was made on at least some of the cases that the original letter outlined. > [@](#): > > Given that he did not initially take action to press stories a month ago about the VA, it’s probably the latter. He doesn’t do his job unless the media takes a virtual cattle prod to him. Your central point fails because your arguments are bad and usually false. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/248 "2014-05-27T17:41:54Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And your own cite explains why. You really ought to try reading a little more, yanno. Might learn something. Might not, sure, but it’s the only way. And your cite doesn’t. Which makes it worthless. But I suppose it could fool the Dopers who don’t know how the legislative process works, so kudos. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/249 "2014-05-27T17:43:49Z")
You think it _didn’t happen_? 😃 Why, just because it undercuts the partisan dudgeon you’ve been carefully instructed to indulge in, by those whom you let do your thinking for you? [This](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-usa-veterans-congress-idUSBREA1Q26O20140227)took less time to Google than it took you to embarrass yourself (yet again) with that silly post. Just the first link to come up. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/250 "2014-05-27T18:36:10Z")
I have never understood how someone who can craft a sentence as well as adaher is nevertheless so boringly wrong all the time. adaher, I don’t have much posting history, so it would be easy enough to check this: I am not a partisan hack. I’ve called out liberal posters here on the SDMB for excessive behavior in the past. I’m not a liberal apologist. Please chew over what I’m about to say carefully: You are not helping your conservative cause. You are not raising important questions. You are not exposing governmental misdeeds. Across days, and months, and years, you are bafflingly, mystifyingly wrong over facts big and small. You misunderstand cites, post absurdities as fact, and are just _wrong._. You’re a perfect reverse barometer, and when posters say they don’t believe what you say without multiple cites to back it up, it’s because you’re _always wrong_. You’re opionated, and I’d never imply your opinions are wrong. But your opinions are predicated on such a woeful misunderstanding of fact that I’d caution you to seriously reconsider why you believe what you believe. I hope I’m not shouting into the wind here. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/251 "2014-05-27T19:12:14Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I hope I’m not shouting into the wind here. Hope is a beautiful thing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/252 "2014-05-27T19:22:14Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > I hope I’m not shouting into the wind here. There is a loud _whooshing_ sound around **adaher.** Not sure if it’s ideas flying over his head or the wind blowing through his ears. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/253 "2014-05-27T21:27:12Z")
He desperately wants to be right, but he doesn’t understand that to get to Right you have to go through Wrong. Lots and lots of Wrong, all the time. And he can’t handle being wrong, so he never grows, and never learns - he just sorta sits there, y’know, knowing it all already. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/254 "2014-05-29T02:29:17Z")
Given how the VA problems are spread all over the nation, and that information was steadily coming out about the problems, I’m just not sure anymore how Shinseki and the President cannot be held directly responsible. Problems at one or two clinics where the books are cooked are just bad actors. Widespread book cooking and other mismanagement, with widespread reports reaching the administration, is a leadership failure at the top. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/255 "2014-05-29T02:31:28Z")
Even more difficult is going to be finding a solution. For example, at a clinic in Texas, the corruption was all over the place: > **[Exclusive: Texas VA Run Like a 'Crime Syndicate,' Whistleblower Says](https://www.thedailybeast.com/exclusive-texas-va-run-like-a-crime-syndicate-whistleblower-says)** > > For years, employees at a Texas VA complained that their bosses were cooking the books. For years, the VA insisted there was no widespread wrongdoing. What can the administration do, fire everyone involved? How will the hospitals function given how many people are responsible? The VA may have to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch, with vets put on Medicare as a stopgap. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/256 "2014-05-29T02:38:14Z")
Horseshit. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/257 "2014-05-29T06:46:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The VA may have to be scrapped and rebuilt from scratch, with vets put on Medicare as a stopgap. Actually some Republicans are using the current situation with the VA as an excuse to scrap the whole thing and privatize it: > [@](#): > > The modern VA is a vestige of the flood of veterans coming out of World Wars I and II, but it is as unnecessary as a health-care system dedicated solely to police or firefighters. The best solution is to privatize the system. At the very least veterans ought to receive vouchers that allow them to seek subsidized care from private providers that removes the VA as the choke point. Why are politicians punishing veterans with inferior government health care? > > [Wall Street Journal](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304652804579574011612797276) Some of the most prominent elected Republicans are also floating that idea around: > [@](#): > > Calls to move veterans’ health care into the hands of private hospitals, amid allegations of widespread problems in Veterans Affairs facilities, gained momentum this weekend with House Speaker John Boehner and a Department of Veterans Affairs whistle-blower backing such a plan. > > Last week, McCain, a Vietnam veteran, began working on a plan with GOP Sens. Richard Burr, N.C., and Tom Coburn, Okla., to allow veterans to receive health care outside the VA system. > > The plan comes at the same time conservatives have suggested a program in which veterans could use vouchers to pay for treatment at private facilities. > > “Let our veterans choose the health care that they need and want the most, and not have to be bound to just going to the VA,” McCain told the newspaper Roll Call. > > [Fox News](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/25/gop-leaders-whistleblower-join-in-calls-to-privitize-veterans-care/) This is a good time for conservatives - who would like to privatize everything if they had their way - to see if that flies with all this sudden criticism. In fact, one might surmise since the VA has had issues with wait times going back to when Bush was in office (“VA’s claims-processing time skyrocketed early in the Bush years. In 2002, it took the VA an average of 224 days to complete claims, as compared with 166 days in 1999.” -[National Journal](http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/who-really-broke-veterans-affairs-20140520)) that the timing of this is a little suspicious: > [@](#): > > Republicans have lost their multi-year guerrilla war against the Affordable Care Act. But they can still bitch and moan about the law which will forever be known as Obamacare. If you paid attention to the radio squawkers immediately following the “breaking news” of an alleged VA scandal…you know that the usual suspects quickly compared reported problems at the VA to the terrible, awful, no good, problems America is experiencing under the tyranny of Obamacare. > > Nothing makes the GOP madder than fighting like hell against progress and then…losing the fight. Republicans lost their foolish battle against the ACA but the alleged VA scandal has given them a new opportunity to swing at their favorite pinata…blindfolded, of course. > > But that’s just the theatrical part, the window dressing for the rubes, so to speak. > > Whether it’s public schools or national parks or Social Security or Medicare…or veterans health care…the GOP’s response is always…privatization. The reason is simple. Profits. > > In the mind of your average conservative ideologue, government is the problem and never the solution…and that is why we so often hear Republicans wanting to “reform” Social Security and other reliable government programs by privatizing those programs. > > But all the ‘government can’t do anything right’ tantrums are but partisan distractions to divert attention away from the GOP’s real motivation…rewarding their donor base, the wildly rich. > > [Ohio Beacon Journal](http://www.ohio.com/blogs/mass-destruction/blog-of-mass-destruction-1.298992/profit-motives-drive-calls-for-va-privatization-1.490980) Now, I realize that the above is opinion only and might even sound a little conspiratorial to conservatives on the defensive. However, as much as Republicans have tried to invent scandals to use them for their political gain, it would be foolish of them to not capitalize on an actual scandal. The fact that they could push for something that conservatives love is just icing on the anti-Obama cake! But even if you take all of that as mere opinion, the fact is that they are trying to sell it as the private healthcare system would be even better for Veterans, and the fact is that they would be wrong: > [@](#): > > The American Customer Satisfaction Index for 2013 shows that the VA health network, which serves more than 8 million veterans, achieved marks equal to or better than those in the private sector. > > Veterans overwhelmingly expressed positive views about customer service at VA health centers, with more than 90 percent survey respondents indicating favorable opinions for inpatient and outpatient care. > > Ninety-two percent of respondents said VA medical providers are highly courteous, while 91 percent said the same of appointment personnel. Additionally, more than 95 percent of the survey takers said they would use a VA medical center the next time they need care. > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/wp/2014/04/17/va-hospitals-on-par-with-private-sector-for-patient-satisfaction/) So this is the same song and dance we’ve seen time and time again with Republicans since the year 0 BC (Barack Craziness): Try to pin something on Obama which has been a problem for ages but which somehow escaped scrutiny until Obama was in the White House for it. The fact it was a problem before doesn’t matter. The fact that their _facts_ are often lacking doesn’t matter. And certainly it doesn’t matter if what they are doing actually hurts many, many people and the country as a whole. All that matters is trying to get something to stick to Obama. The fact that in this case they can also attempt to parlay it into an ideological victory is undoubtedly giving some conservatives bigger hard on’s than 16 year old boys in gym class shorts, however my guess is that this won’t pan out for them as well. First of all, everyone is sick of Republicans crying wolf. But most importantly, the days of vets being overwhelmingly pro-Republican are over. When you have [half a dozen veterans groups slamming Republican Senator Richard Burr](http://www.politico.com/story/2014/05/richard-burr-vietnam-veterans-veterans-affairs-scandal-va-107147.html) for his overt politicizing of the whole affair, and everyone - including veterans - knows that the [Republicans in the Senate blocked a bill](http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-usa-veterans-congress-idUSBREA1Q26O20140227) that would have built 27 new medical facilities (think that would help with wait lists?) because they couldn’t tack on unrelated amendments that would sanction Iran - it’s hard to make the case that the Republicans are really on your side. The VA is not perfect and it’s amazing that it does so well when it’s impossible for them to ask for money to handle huge influxes of patients sent off to Republican wars because Republican ideology says that going to war is fine but taking care of the soldiers later is too much to ask, when like most government jobs the pay pales in comparison to similar positions in the private sector. The fact that they do so well overall is a testament to everyone involved (and a testament that our private healthcare system was what needed the overhaul). Fix the VA, make it better, fund it properly and quit playing political games with that funding. But dissolve it? Anyone who thinks that is a good idea is putting politics ahead of the well-being of our vets because the facts don’t bear this out. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/258 "2014-05-29T07:24:02Z")
If we’re putting the well being of vets ahead of politics, then simply allowing vets to do private care is the best option. Having a choice isn’t “privatization”, unless you believe that giving vet a choice would destroy the VA. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/259 "2014-05-29T07:40:25Z")
The government is just broken all over: > **[CMS Stonewall FOIA Requests about Do-Nothing Obamacare Contractor | National...](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/cms-stonewall-foia-requests-about-do-nothing-obamacare-contractor-jillian-kay-melchior/)** > > Serco, a British-based company that received an Obamacare contract worth up to $1.34 billion, is paying employees to sit idle, nap and play Pictionary on the taxpayer dime, according to recent repo… KMOV-TV can’t get a response from CMS about a contractor implemented in scandals in other countries. By law, they are supposed to respond in 20 days. 30 days later, nothing. Incompetence all around. And there’s no one trying to actually fix these problems. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/260 "2014-05-29T07:41:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If we’re putting the well being of vets ahead of politics, then simply allowing vets to do private care is the best option. The facts say you’re wrong as usual. > [@](#): > > Having a choice isn’t “privatization”, unless you believe that giving vet a choice would destroy the VA. It would divert funds away from the organization that needs it, the organization that has done a much better job than the private healthcare system already. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=14)