# I pit the President for making the same excuse again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864 "2014-05-20T21:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/261 "2014-05-29T07:42:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And there’s no one trying to actually fix these problems. Says the person whose brilliant idea is to “scrap” the VA. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/262 "2014-05-29T07:45:35Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The facts say you’re wrong as usual. > > It would divert funds away from the organization that needs it, the organization that has done a much better job than the private healthcare system already. So vets just have to die for the greater good. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/263 "2014-05-29T08:38:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So vets just have to die for the greater good. Got it. Since “the VA healthcare system has consistently out-performed the non-VA/private sector in quality of care and patient safety” ([Forbes](http://www.forbes.com/sites/harlankrumholz/2014/05/23/3-things-to-know-before-you-rush-to-judgment-about-va-health-system/)) that means that a lot more people are dying within the private healthcare system. So I’ll mark you down as a proponent of Single Payer since you feel, as I do, that fewer people should be dying. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/264 "2014-05-29T09:05:02Z")
The op-ed fails because it doesn’t take into account the fact that VA hospitals have been lying about their stats. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/265 "2014-05-29T09:18:33Z")
Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? No, of course you don’t. The “stats” are made up from questioning patients, which I made abundantly clear in my first post above, with citations. So either you can’t read, didn’t read or are accusing those questioned are lying. I referenced a Washington Post article about the American Customer Satisfaction Index who “interviews about 80,000 Americans annually and asks about their satisfaction with the goods and services they have consumed. Potential respondents are screened prior to interviewing to guarantee inclusion of customers of a wide range of business-to-consumer products and services, including durable goods, services, non-durable goods, local government services, federal government services, and so forth. Results from data collection and analyses are released to the public throughout each calendar year. ACSI data has been used by academic researchers,[1] corporations,[2][3] government agencies,[4] market analysts and investors,[5] industry trade associations, and consumers.” ([Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Customer_Satisfaction_Index)) ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/266 "2014-05-29T09:33:56Z")
That’s even less useful. Plus how did they measure safety from talking to patients? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/267 "2014-05-29T09:41:25Z")
Besides which, I still don’t see the problem with letting vets use private care if they can get access to it more quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/268 "2014-05-29T09:55:25Z")
Their admissions/scheduling stats, idjit. They can’t juke their mortality rates since deaths tend to be noticed and logged outside the VA’s reach. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/269 "2014-05-29T10:01:15Z")
Were they counting the patients that died waiting for care in their mortality stats? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/270 "2014-05-29T10:22:52Z")
They couldn’t not, since they were still enrolled with the VA. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/271 "2014-05-29T11:23:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If we’re putting the well being of vets ahead of politics, then simply allowing vets to do private care is the best option. > > Having a choice isn’t “privatization”, unless you believe that giving vet a choice would destroy the VA. Wow. I stepped away from this thread to catch my breath and spend some time in the Real World and now you’ve given little 'ol me some new ammo. Let me ask you something, and finding a zillion cites isn’t necessary, because it’s a thought experiment. There are roughly 23 million veterans in the United States. Explain, in your own words, how the private sector would cope with a sudden onslaught of vets who are dumped into that sector. Again, I don’t want to see a single link to any outside sources. I want to know how _you_ would solve this problem. I’m not talking about veteran-specific needs, such as TBI, PTSD, military sexual trauma, or other problems. I’m asking what you would do with 23 million people suddenly required to seek care in the civilian sector. This is the first part of the first question. The second part of that question is this. There are roughly a quarter of a million employees who work for the Veterans Health Administration, the specific division we’re talking about here. If the VA were privatized, these people, along with contractors and assorted others whose livelihoods depend entirely on the VA. (I’m not talking about vets who receive a disability pension, I’m only talking about employees.) How would you deal with dumping a quarter of a million plus people into an already weak job market? Bonus points if you can figure out a way to get around federal employment regulations, collective bargaining agreements, and various union protections. The second part is, how does the VA’s delays in providing care compare to the private sector? Has anyone gathered those numbers? How would you measure that in a system that is not nearly as cohesive as the VA’s? Would you only count appointments made for primary care? What about specialty care? I’m being serious here, **adaher**. Your credibility is sorely lacking because as far as anyone on this board can tell, all you do is parrot the usual Fox talking points. I wanted to give you the opportunity to salvage your reputation by giving you the opportunity to think your “solutions” through to a logical conclusion. These are not “gotcha” questions. They are intended to make you think about the consequences of privatization because they are not insignificant. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/272 "2014-05-29T11:31:18Z")
Missed the edit window. > [@MsRobyn](#): > > If the VA were privatized, these people, along with contractors and assorted others whose livelihoods depend entirely on the VA. (I’m not talking about vets who receive a disability pension, I’m only talking about employees.) should read: If the VA were privatized, these people, along with contractors and assorted others whose livelihoods depend entirely on the VA, _ **would have to find new employment** _. (I’m not talking about vets who receive a disability pension, I’m only talking about employees.) (New text emphasized.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/273 "2014-05-29T14:49:25Z")
**MsR** , thank you for your service (in this thread). 😃 But please don’t hurt your head banging on that wall. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/274 "2014-05-30T01:14:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > **MsR** , thank you for your service (in this thread). 😃 > > But please don’t hurt your head banging on that wall. Nah. Something tells me he won’t be coming back to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/275 "2014-05-30T03:14:06Z")
Well first off, most vets don’t use the VA now: Among veteran respondents, 6.2% reported receiving all of their health care at the VA, 6.9% reported receiving some of their health care at the VA, and 86.9% did not use VA health care > **[Veterans Using and Uninsured Veterans Not Using Veterans Affairs (VA) Health...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1802114/)** > > The objectives of this study were to: (1) examine veteran reliance on health services provided by the Veterans Health Administration (VA), (2) describe the characteristics of veterans who receive VA care, and (3) report rates of uninsurance among... Bad vets! Taking jobs from honest… Oh wait, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/276 "2014-05-30T04:03:15Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Nah. Something tells me he won’t be coming back to the thread. **adaher** is the gift that keeps on giving. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/277 "2014-05-30T04:33:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well first off, most vets don’t use the VA now. Except that most veterans of recent conflicts do: > [@](#): > > Approximately 58 percent (1,027,801) of all separated OEF/OIF/OND Veterans have used VA health care since October 1, 2001 (through the end of 2013) > > [VA Health Care Utilization by Recent Veterans](http://www.publichealth.va.gov/epidemiology/reports/oefoifond/health-care-utilization/) Additionally, as this [CBO Report](http://www.cbo.gov/publication/21773) from 2010 points out: > [@](#): > > The number of veterans treated by VA climbed rapidly following the enactment of the 1996 law, increasing from 2.9 million in fiscal year 1995 to 4.5 million in 2003. By 2003, VA no longer had the capacity to adequately serve all current enrollees, prompting the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to suspend further enrollment of some higher-income veterans (those in P8); VA eased that restriction in 2009 to allow some of those veterans to enroll. So some percentage of veterans not using the VA were not doing so by choice. In 2003 while [del]Bush was in office[/del] Obama was using his time machine to mess things up for everyone, the VA literally was overbooked and rather than simply get more funding to hire more doctors, nurses and staff or acquire or build more facilities, many veterans had no other choice but to eschew the VA for private options. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/278 "2014-05-30T04:43:18Z")
Thanks for the more recent numbers. Still, we’ve gone from 6% to 25%. There is absolutely nothing wrong with letting those vets take advantage of the private care most of their fellow vets take advantage of. The VA has seen big funding increases for some time now. How have they spent that money? Have they hired more administrators than doctors or vice versa? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/279 "2014-05-30T04:51:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The VA has seen big funding increases for some time now. How have they spent that money? … going from 6 to 58% of veterans covered ? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864/280 "2014-05-30T04:52:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > **adaher** is the gift that keeps on giving. To misquote a guy with crazy hair, who might not have said the thing in the first place, _the only observed cases of the infinite are the universe and **adaher** ’s stupidity; yet, there is still some question about the universe_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-president-for-making-the-same-excuse-again/688864.md?page=15)