# I pit the rape culture at the University of Virginia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515 "2014-11-24T20:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/181 "2015-04-06T19:07:41Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > When the “media” starts going after itself, in which we see the outlets and voices of big money and power going after each other, Rolling Stone’s self-examination became necessary when other big media outlets criticized its process. You conceive of some other kind of “going after”? > [@](#): > > As long as the media is immune to the media, they can do whatever they can get away with. Who has “gotten away with” something here? Do you think so long as no one is fired then someone has gotten away with something? I don’t see it that way. Rolling Stone, the writer, and her editors have taken a serious blow to their credibility and in all likelihood to their bottom line. They also face the prospect of legal action. None of that indicates to me that someone has gotten away with something. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/182 "2015-04-06T19:16:11Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > This isn’t even the first time this reporter has fabricated a rape story. I haven’t heard anything about that. Do you have a cite for her being duped before? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/183 "2015-04-06T19:21:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Now, Fox News - _there’s_ a cornerstone of journalistic integrity you can set your watch by, amirite? The Rolling Stone has proven that they are not responsible journalists, and I don’t wear a watch. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/184 "2015-04-06T19:21:35Z")
> **[Before Rolling Stone Ran With Jackie's Story They Fell for Billy's](https://www.bigtrial.net/2014/12/before-rolling-stone-was-conned-by.html)** > > Sabrina Rubin Erdely By Ralph Cipriano for Bigtrial.net Before a writer for Rolling Stone ran with an alleged gang-rape story told by... ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/185 "2015-04-06T19:24:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Now, Fox News - _there’s_ a cornerstone of journalistic integrity you can set your watch by, amirite? Far be it from me to defend Fox News, but it seems that a good way to keep people from flocking to the conservative media with all its flaws would be to stop stonewalling about the flaws in the Salon, Rolling Stone, Huffpo, universe, and the similar issues with the NBC/CNN mainstream. There really are a lot of narrative-seeking, reporters making news to win prizes, Obama-worship, and just plain dumb people working in news. It’s not just some right-wing talking point. The entire saga of this story – which, by the way, EVEN TODAY is still being defended as accurate with anyone who disagrees labeled a “rape apologist” by people who work for major media outlets – will only exacerbate this problem. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/186 "2015-04-06T19:27:09Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > That’s exactly what responsible journalist are required to do. Every fucking day. I wish that were the case, but journalism is shit most places any more. Just writing down what somebody tell you. Still, this _Rolling Stone_ piece was worse than that. That writer should be canned and _Rolling Stone_ should vet their stories or stop pretending to report important things. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/187 "2015-04-06T19:47:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I will concede all that. That alone would not to me indicate that anyone had to be fired. How about this? The author isn’t even on staff. She is a freelancer. So, they don’t even have to fire her. They have to just not rehire her. But, apparently, there is no problem: “Sabrina’s done great work for us over the years and we expect that to continue.” Would you buy future stories from someone who was this monumentally bad at what they do? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/188 "2015-04-06T19:51:58Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > [Before Rolling Stone Ran With Jackie's Story They Fell for Billy's | Big Trial | Philadelphia Trial Blog](http://www.bigtrial.net/2014/12/before-rolling-stone-was-conned-by.html) Not sure if this is the same thing. It may be, but that story is badly written. Your cite says the details were easily debunked, but those details were good enough to get three men convicted in a court of law. Three men who had lawyers and access to investigators of their own. It wasn’t just the reporter that was misled. It was also the State of Pennsylvania. > [@](#): > > In Philly, three priests and a school teacher wound up going to jail over Billy’s story, which has since unraveled. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/189 "2015-04-06T19:54:17Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > How about this? The author isn’t even on staff. She is a freelancer. So, they don’t even have to fire her. They have to just not rehire her. > > But, apparently, there is no problem: > > “Sabrina’s done great work for us over the years and we expect that to continue.” > > Would you buy future stories from someone who was this monumentally bad at what they do? 1. You understand that Rolling Stone has not, and cannot, given the facts, blame this all on Sabrina. Mistakes like these are not the mistakes of individuals; they are mistakes of the entire operation as a whole. Sabrina did not just put together a story and publish it by herself under Rolling Stone’s name. Rolling Stone as an institution is at fault for the errors made here. Blaming it all on Sabrina would be unfair and dishonest. 1. As I have said before, _one_ disaster of this kind is not enough to conclude that this person was “monumentally bad at what they do.” Rolling Stone’s motivation is to preserve its credibility. If they do not believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with Sabrina’s character and competence or other _personal_ professional qualities, then it’s to their credit that they aren’t saying “It’s all her fault. We solve this problem by declaring we will never hire her again.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/190 "2015-04-06T20:03:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. You understand that Rolling Stone has not, and cannot, given the facts, blame this all on Sabrina. Mistakes like these are not the mistakes of individuals; they are mistakes of the entire operation as a whole. Sabrina did not just put together a story and publish it by herself under Rolling Stone’s name. Rolling Stone as an institution is at fault for the errors made here. Blaming it all on Sabrina would be unfair and dishonest. You’re absolutely right. That’s a good reason that not only Erdely should be fired, but the editor as well. > [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. As I have said before, _one_ disaster of this kind is not enough to conclude that this person was “monumentally bad at what they do.” > > Rolling Stone’s motivation is to preserve its credibility. If they do not believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with Sabrina’s character and competence or other _personal_ professional qualities, then it’s to their credit that they aren’t saying “It’s all her fault. We solve this problem by declaring we will never hire her again.” No, their statement is that this was multiple errors by multiple people and we have dealt with it by declaring that no further articles by this author will be purchased, and the editor who was in charge of making sure that the most cursory of fact checking was done is no longer with us. Credibility restored. Eventually. This was not a single disaster, it was many disasters rolled into a single story. It required other journalists approximately 23 minutes to fact check it and find many things that could easily have been discovered. As was laid out in the Columbia review yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/191 "2015-04-06T20:22:57Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Not sure if this is the same thing. It may be, but that story is badly written. > > Your cite says the details were easily debunked, but those details were good enough to get three men convicted in a court of law. Three men who had lawyers and access to investigators of their own. It wasn’t just the reporter that was misled. It was also the State of Pennsylvania. Read this story, and tell me if it rings true. With uncheckable sources, and quotes that seem absolutely perfect (in a movie of the week sort of way): > **[ShootingUp.pdf](https://www.sabrinaerdely.com/docs/ShootingUp.pdf)** > > 2.91 MB ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/192 "2015-04-06T20:23:57Z")
We’re just going in circles now. I would not fire anyone based solely on what we know and I would not expect anyone else to either. One incident does not define someone’s fitness to hold a job. Moreover, I would expect my employer to back me up as well, if I were involved in such a situation that amounted to being too trusting of a source. Being too trusting of a source is _not_ the biggest crime in journalism—it happens rather commonly. The biggest crime is making shit up on purpose. All that, given that in my history in journalism, I have also made mistakes of judgment and procedure and instead of being fired, I was taught what mistakes were made and procedures were put in place to ensure they wouldn’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/193 "2015-04-06T20:28:57Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > We’re just going in circles now. I would not fire anyone based solely on what we know and I would not expect anyone else to either. One incident does not define someone’s fitness to hold a job. Most [journalists](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/04/06/rolling_stone_uva_campus_rape_story_columbia_issues_a_damning_report.html) [appear](http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/06/opinions/louis-rolling-stone-uva-fraternity-debacle/) [to](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/04/06/rolling_stone_uva_rape_story_shock_that_no_one_is_fired_for_journalistic.html) [disagree](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/04/06/rolling-stone-isnt-firing-anyone-thats-terrible-for-journalism/) [with you](http://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/firing_rolling_stone.php). ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/194 "2015-04-06T20:36:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > All that, given that in my history in journalism, I have also made mistakes of judgment and procedure and instead of being fired, I was taught what mistakes were made and procedures were put in place to ensure they wouldn’t happen again. Well, the quote from the editor in the wake of the report is: _“It’s not like I think we need to overhaul our process, and I don’t think we need to necessarily institute a lot of new ways of doing things. We just have to do what we’ve always done and just make sure we don’t make this mistake again.”_ So, not only is no one getting fired, they apparently don’t see any need to do anything differently. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/195 "2015-04-06T20:48:46Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > [A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA](http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119) > > Of course UVa is not alone, but as the linked Rolling Stone article shows, they’re about as horrible as possible. It seems schools with Greek culture are more likely to also have a rape culture. The specific frat in this case is Phi Kappa Psi. Really? How do we know this? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/196 "2015-04-06T20:59:14Z")
Many people are now indignantly castigating Rolling Stone for their decision to trust one single source as a basis for leaping to judgement. But the decision to trust a single source and leap to judgement is what the OP of this thread did, too, and many of its earliest participants. Have any of you had your own Columbia journalism dean moment? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/197 "2015-04-06T21:18:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Many people are now indignantly castigating Rolling Stone for their decision to trust one single source as a basis for leaping to judgement. > > But the decision to trust a single source and leap to judgement is what the OP of this thread did, too, and many of its earliest participants. > > Have any of you had your own Columbia journalism dean moment? Are the people who are indignantly castigating Rolling Stone the same individuals who were lambasting UVA initially? Admittedly, I didn’t look back through the thread to see if these are the same posters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/198 "2015-04-06T21:19:59Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Most [journalists](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/04/06/rolling_stone_uva_campus_rape_story_columbia_issues_a_damning_report.html) [appear](http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/06/opinions/louis-rolling-stone-uva-fraternity-debacle/) [to](http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/04/06/rolling_stone_uva_rape_story_shock_that_no_one_is_fired_for_journalistic.html) [disagree](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/04/06/rolling-stone-isnt-firing-anyone-thats-terrible-for-journalism/) [with you](http://www.cjr.org/business_of_news/firing_rolling_stone.php). 1. I’m willing to express the minority opinion, if it comes to that. 2. A handful of opinion articles is not a basis for concluding what “most” journalists think. 3. It’s easy for outside institutions to call for firings when none of their own people are directly involved (By the way, how does this square with a comment above that journalistic entities do not hold each other to account?) 4. Not even every single one of those articles says that someone _must_ be fired in order for Rolling Stone to repair its credibility. At least one merely suggests that firing would “send a strong message.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/199 "2015-04-06T21:24:35Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Are the people who are indignantly castigating Rolling Stone the same individuals who were lambasting UVA initially? > > Admittedly, I didn’t look back through the thread to see if these are the same posters. At least one: the OP said, later in the thread, that if he could re-do the OP he’d be criticizing Rolling Stone for poor journalism. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/200 "2015-04-06T21:43:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > 1. You understand that Rolling Stone has not, and cannot, given the facts, blame this all on Sabrina. Mistakes like these are not the mistakes of individuals; they are mistakes of the entire operation as a whole. Sabrina did not just put together a story and publish it by herself under Rolling Stone’s name. > > Rolling Stone as an institution is at fault for the errors made here. Blaming it all on Sabrina would be unfair and dishonest. > > 1. As I have said before, _one_ disaster of this kind is not enough to conclude that this person was “monumentally bad at what they do.” > > Rolling Stone’s motivation is to preserve its credibility. If they do not believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with Sabrina’s character and competence or other _personal_ professional qualities, then it’s to their credit that they aren’t saying “It’s all her fault. We solve this problem by declaring we will never hire her again.” This is like saying, “The plane crash wasn’t just one air traffic controller’s fault; it was the collective fault of many air traffic controllers. Therefore none of them should be disciplined.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=11)