# I pit the rape culture at the University of Virginia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515 "2014-11-24T20:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/221 "2015-04-07T16:14:01Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Competent people do not make colossal errors. That’s either a ridiculously naive statement or a nae true Scotsman. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/222 "2015-04-07T16:18:19Z")
Besides, even otherwise competent people have to pay a price when there’s a really major f\*\*k-up. You graduated top 10% from Annapolis, have written brilliant papers at the Naval Institute, you have medals for bravery, your crew loves you… Then you accidentally torpedo the Staten Island ferry. You’ll be commanding a desk in Wyoming for the next couple of years if you’re lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/223 "2015-04-07T16:29:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That’s either a ridiculously naive statement or a nae true Scotsman. How about this: Grotesque incompetence that potentially ruins lives and opens up your news-outlet for lawsuits _and_ destroys whatever reputation for integrity your news-outlet had is grounds for firing. Especially when the merest nod in the general direction of due-diligence wasn’t performed. And yes, her editor should also be fired. And all the way up the ladder. Anyone who let this story through and was between this ‘reporter’ and the printing-press hitting the paper should be out on their ass. This isn’t a minor grammatical error, this is a catastrophic screw-up where not one person even though of the idea of checking anything. It’s a bank-teller giving out a million dollars in change rather than a dollar. The doctor who gives 10 oz of adrenaline rather than 10ccs. You don’t seem to get the difference between minor, “anyone can make them” errors which happen all the time to everyone and huge fuck-ups made through laziness, corruption and incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/224 "2015-04-07T16:34:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I have to admit I’m not too well versed in this area but do you have a cite for this kind of claim? > > The only cause of action for a corporate entity I am familiar with is commercial disparagement, which requires a showing of monetary harm, as I said above. You can libel a corporation (maybe it will be called defamation or something else but amounts to the same thing): > [@](#): > > It is sometimes thought that you cannot libel a corporation. That is incorrect. A corporation has a reputation just like a natural person, and that reputation may be injured by a defamatory statement. > > SOURCE: [http://www.seqlegal.com/blog/10-things-you-should-know-about-libel](http://www.seqlegal.com/blog/10-things-you-should-know-about-libel) > [@](#): > > A company or organization can be a defamation plaintiff. In fact, the largest jury verdict every awarded in a libel case came in a case brought by a business plaintiff. > > SOURCE: [Who Can Sue For Defamation | Digital Media Law Project](http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/who-can-sue-defamation) > [@](#): > > Can a corporation sue me for harm to its reputation? > > Yes. In fact, businesses regularly sue for defamation because their economic interests are often tied to their reputations. > > SOURCE: [Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press - Home](http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/digital-journalists-legal-guide/can-corporation-sue-me-harm-its-reputatio) Also, damages do not necessarily have to be proven. > [@](#): > > Defamation per se > > All states except Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, and Tennessee recognize that some categories of false statements are so innately harmful that they are considered to be defamatory per se. In the common law tradition, damages for such false statements are presumed and do not have to be proven. > > Statements are defamatory per se where they falsely impute to the plaintiff one or more of the following things:[2] > > - Allegations or imputations “injurious to another in their trade, business, or profession” > - Allegations or imputations “of loathsome disease” (historically leprosy and sexually transmitted disease, now also including mental illness) > - Allegations or imputations of “unchastity” (usually only in unmarried people and sometimes only in women) > - Allegations or imputations of criminal activity (sometimes only crimes of moral turpitude)[12][13] > > SOURCE: [United States defamation law - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_defamation_law#Defamation_per_se) ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/225 "2015-04-07T16:45:48Z")
I’m a reporter. I decide in advance to write a story proclaiming that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I call eight people until I find one willing to allege she saw a Kenyan birth certificate. I don’t ask her to show me the certificate. I don’t do 20 minutes of research which would show me that the office in Nairobi where she claims to have seen the certificate was closed for a public holiday on the day she says she was in Kenya, or that the public records clerk whose name and picture she supplied has a name that doesn’t appear to exist anywhere else and bears a picture taken from the Facebook profile of a person with another name who doesn’t live in Kenya or work in public records. She claims that she had to bribe five people to see the certificate, though later changes this to seven. When challenged that this story doesn’t make any sense and shown that other media outlets have easily debunked it with just minutes of investigation, I accuse everyone who is pointing out the obvious of being a “Kenyan president apologist” and perpetuating “election fraud culture” for months, before finally claiming that a “master fabulist” hoodwinked me and I should not bear any responsibility for the erroneous story or be fired from my job as an investigative reporter. Does anyone defending Erdley now think this is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/226 "2015-04-07T16:55:06Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Has there been information on why this Jackie accuser made up the story? I’ve only read some vague reference to trying to attract the affection of a boy. Both the authors of the Columbia article and the police seem to be believe that something did happen to Jackie. The story she initially reported to UVA authorities differed substantially from the one that she told to Rolling Stone. It looks like she may have taken an incident that disturbed her and blown it up into something entirely different, without realizing the consequences. It’s possible that she felt that the fraternity story would gather her more attention and sympathy from the boy in question (one of the people she went to after the alleged incident), than the true story, which may have been more ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/227 "2015-04-07T16:58:06Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Both the authors of the Columbia article and the police seem to be believe that something did happen to Jackie. They say they “can’t rule out that something happened” which is metaphysically true. However, whatever happened didn’t happen at that frat and didn’t involve Haven Monahan; it’s been proven that the frat hosted no even that night and Haven Monahan isn’t a real person. Sure, without 24/7 drone surveillance of a person, we can never say with 100% certainty that they were not a victim of some crime in some timeframe. But that’s not really relevant to the fact that the particular accusations made here were, conclusively and certainly, fabricated. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/228 "2015-04-07T16:58:07Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > I’m a reporter. I decide in advance to write a story proclaiming that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. I call eight people until I find one willing to allege she saw a Kenyan birth certificate. I don’t ask her to show me the certificate. I don’t do 20 minutes of research which would show me that the office in Nairobi where she claims to have seen the certificate was closed for a public holiday on the day she says she was in Kenya, or that the public records clerk whose name and picture she supplied has a name that doesn’t appear to exist anywhere else and bears a picture taken from the Facebook profile of a person with another name who doesn’t live in Kenya or work in public records. She claims that she had to bribe five people to see the certificate, though later changes this to seven. > > When challenged that this story doesn’t make any sense and shown that other media outlets have easily debunked it with just minutes of investigation, I accuse everyone who is pointing out the obvious of being a “Kenyan president apologist” and perpetuating “election fraud culture” for months, before finally claiming that a “master fabulist” hoodwinked me and I should not bear any responsibility for the erroneous story or be fired from my job as an investigative reporter. > > Does anyone defending Erdley now think this is acceptable? Brilliant analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/229 "2015-04-07T17:10:24Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Does anyone defending Erdley now think this is acceptable? Did anyone say it was? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/230 "2015-04-07T17:26:37Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Has there been information on why this Jackie accuser made up the story? I’ve only read some vague reference to trying to attract the affection of a boy. My personal theory is Jackie was doing poorly at school so fabricated this story as a means to not get in trouble for bad grades. The bad grades and coincidental timing of her claim are in evidence: > [@](#): > > - Jackie was referred to Dean Nicole Eramo due to poor grades and told her on May 20, 2013, that she was sexually assaulted in a UVA fraternity house. Her description of the incident was not consistent with the Rolling Stone article. > > SOURCE: [Everything We Know About the UVA Rape Case [Updated]](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/everything-we-know-uva-rape-case.html) ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/231 "2015-04-07T17:28:31Z")
You’re tap dancing pretty hard here, Ascenray, maybe you should step back and take a couple of deep breaths. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/232 "2015-04-07T17:31:06Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Sure, without 24/7 drone surveillance of a person, we can never say with 100% certainty that they were not a victim of some crime in some timeframe. But that’s not really relevant to the fact that the particular accusations made here were, conclusively and certainly, fabricated. The question I was answering was why did the accuser make up the story. And I think the fact that that something did happen to her is very relevant to that question. According to the Columbia report, a sexual assault at the fraternity was reported. It took place at an earlier date than the one claimed in Rolling Stone. > [@](#): > > The university said only that according to the account it had received, a freshman woman had been drinking at a party, had gone upstairs and had been forced to have oral sex with multiple men. > [@](#): > > In interviews for this report, Ryan and Alex said that Jackie told them that she had been forced to perform oral sex on multiple men. The existence of this earlier different incident does not excuse the fabrication of the later one, or the incompetence of Rolling Stone. The earlier incident may not have happened either. But I think the evidence is a lot more substantial than just “some crime in some timeframe,” and I think it does go some way to explaining why the accuser made the accusations she did. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/233 "2015-04-07T17:33:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Did anyone say it was? Yes, there are several people on this page who think it’s acceptable to decline to fire someone who acted as I described. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/234 "2015-04-07T17:45:40Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > But I think the evidence is a lot more substantial than just “some crime in some timeframe,” and I think it does go some way to explaining why the accuser made the accusations she did. The evidence that some kind of assault happened at all is not substantial. The police did a thorough (in this case) investigation into the incident. They found no evidence an assault occurred. > [@](#): > > Charlottesville, Virginia, police announced at a press conference that their five-month investigation turned up no evidence to corroborate Jackie’s story. “We’re not able to conclude to any substantive degree that an incident occurred at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house or any other fraternity house, for that matter,” said Police Chief Timothy J. Longo. “That doesn’t mean something terrible didn’t happen to Jackie … we’re just not able to gather sufficient facts to determine what that is.” > > SOURCE: [Everything We Know About the UVA Rape Case [Updated]](http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/everything-we-know-uva-rape-case.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/235 "2015-04-07T18:34:29Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Yes, there are several people on this page who think it’s acceptable to decline to fire someone who acted as I described. Not firing someone doesn’t mean their behavior was acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/236 "2015-04-07T18:47:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > If she had identified any real person, it would have been easy to see some kind of discipline based on the honor code, but perhaps it is expansive enough to include this. You mean the honor code of not lying to a major publication accusing a whole frat and the culture of the school of being rape happy? Of causing a 5 month police investigation making the frat and the school look bad because of said lie? > [@](#): > > If the fraternity proceeds with a defamation claim, it will be interesting to see. > > It will be made interesting by the fact that no specific, real person was ever accused by name. They would probably have to argue that the descriptions in the article were sufficient to identify certain individuals and specifically harm their reputations. > > If they were suing for commercial disparagement or the corporate version of libel, they would have to show monetary losses or some other commercial harm resulting from the harm to the organization’s reputation. Monetary losses like alumni declining to give money to the school or to the frat. Loss of future income because people do not want to go to a school with a culture of being tolerant of rape. Like of the cook of the frat losing his job because they shut that chapter down. You don’t think the RS article accusing the frat and the school of being rape happy hurt eithers reputation? I hope the frat sues RS, the school sues RS and that cook that lost his job sues RS and I hope they get enough to seriously hurt RS as a business. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/237 "2015-04-07T18:50:38Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > Yes, there are several people on this page who think it’s acceptable to decline to fire someone who acted as I described. That’s not even close to saying that what happened was alright. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/238 "2015-04-07T18:57:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > IIRC, UVA has a really strict honor code. > > It’ll be interesting to see if she gets expelled for falsely accusing other students of violent felonies. Ha ha! Not likely. At some institutes of higher learning, she’d probably get course credit for falsely accusing men of violent felonies. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/239 "2015-04-07T18:59:00Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > I hope the frat sues RS, the school sues RS and that cook that lost his job sues RS and I hope they get enough to seriously hurt RS as a business. The frat has already said it will sue Rolling Stone. I would be surprised if the school doesn’t sue. [UVA’s Phi Kappa Psi to sue Rolling Stone for ‘reckless’ rape story](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/06/uva-fraternity-sue-rolling-stone-reckless-defamatory-story) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/240 "2015-04-07T19:00:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Besides, even otherwise competent people have to pay a price when there’s a really major f\*\*k-up. You graduated top 10% from Annapolis, have written brilliant papers at the Naval Institute, you have medals for bravery, your crew loves you… Then you accidentally torpedo the Staten Island ferry. You’ll be commanding a desk in Wyoming for the next couple of years if you’re lucky. To be fair, those Staten Islanders probably deserved it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=13)