# I pit the rape culture at the University of Virginia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515 "2014-11-24T20:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/41 "2014-11-25T22:47:06Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > Stop teaching women they have a right to expect a consequence free life. Because such a thing doesn’t exist, and you are setting them up for assault or worse by teaching them such complete NONSENSE This is gutter rubbish of the worst sort. In Hammurabi’s code, the first known code of law in Western civilization, a nobleman was permitted to kill a commoner with impunity, for jostling him on the street or insulting him, any reason at all. Do we go around telling people that they should take care not to insult a nobleman on the street lest you be murdered on the spot? No, we changed society, the conditions of society, and the rules of society. We changed expectations for behavior. _We changed the consequences._ We can do the same thing with rape frats with the sons of the over privileged and overprotected and their rape keggers. There is nothing inevitable about the prevalence of tape on our society. Sure, there will never be zero tapes, but that’s not what we are talking about. Furthermore, the vast majority of rapes are not strangers hiding in a dark alley. They are fathers and uncles and cousins and husbands and boyfriends and friends and classmates and your own DATE. Someone you know and trust. Telling a woman “you should not have done X or Y” is worse than useless it’s insulting and demeaning and wrongheaded. Because there will always be something she shouldn’t have done. It’s just telling her “you shouldn’t have been a woman.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/42 "2014-11-25T22:55:13Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > So you believe in a consequence free life then. Tell me, what planet does that exist on, because on THIS planet, the sooner you learn not to walk down dark alleys with 100 dollar bills plastered to your forehead, the longer you’re going to live without encountering a “criminal element”. The longer you’re going to live… period. > > My point is, women shouldn’t be “allowed” to do anything, as if they were carefully monitored children in a crib. Women (and men) should be held responsible for their actions. Because life WILL. If you want to diminish the threat of sexual assault, then: 1) Don’t go to frat parties where alcohol and drugs may be consumed. 2) If you do go, accept you have a responsibility to drink moderately AND maintain control of your drink, not allowing others to get you refills or handle your cup. 3) Have a “battle buddy / wingman” you stay in visual range of 4) have a safe backup exit strategy/ride home. > > The above does not absolve young males of their responsibilities, nor the hosts of their responsibilities to their guests. But each entity in that scenario has a part to play, and yes, that includes women. They are not sheltered doves. They are adult females. Act like it, instead of a small child incapable of higher thought or self-protection. > > Rape is a terrible, terrible assault. The thing is, in many cases, like the dark alley scenario, it is AVOIDABLE. Life is not fair, or kind, or forgiving. The sooner every young person understands that, the fewer rapes and murders we will have on campus (or anywhere else). > > I am sorry this young person was assaulted. Truly I am. But you know what? She still has her life. Unlike Hannah Graham. Again: > > Life is not fair. > Life is not kind. > Life is not forgiving. > > Stop teaching women they have a right to expect a consequence free life. Because such a thing doesn’t exist, and you are setting them up for assault or worse by teaching them such complete NONSENSE. > > Regards, > -Bouncer- Because only pretty girls who wear skimpy clothes and dance around and get drunk get raped, right? Nuns, elderly women, young children are never, EVER raped. It simply never happens. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/43 "2014-11-25T23:06:31Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Well, ya see, quite a number of us males can look at this video, say “er, umm… I’ll be in my bunk” :o yet next day carry on in an appropriate manner, NOT concluding that this is any sort of invitation to assault the women with whom we share workplaces and school environments. Some pop singers want to celebrate their asses? Gives nobody any license to act inappropriately. I didn’t make the claim videos like that give a license to rape. I made the claim they lead to the [derogation](https://www.google.com/search?q=derogation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb) of women in our society. If you disagree, such is your prerogative. I am not advocating we censor our media or art. I am passing a value judgement on how this particular art affects our societal view of women and their worth. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/44 "2014-11-26T00:20:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I didn’t make the claim videos like that give a license to rape. I made the claim they lead to the [derogation](https://www.google.com/search?q=derogation&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb) of women in our society. > > If you disagree, such is your prerogative. I am not advocating we censor our media or art. I am passing a value judgement on how this particular art affects our societal view of women and their worth. Yeah, and your judgment is baseless and indeed counter factual. We are talking about our societal problems here. But we have to remember that sexual emancipation, freedom of sexual expression, and the acceptance of sexuality in society has gone hand in hand with the improvement of the status of women. Every society that believes in restricting sexual expression, restrictions women’s sexuality, covering up sexuality, etc., I’d s society in which women are worse officer includes our own past history. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/45 "2014-11-26T00:48:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Every society that believes in restricting sexual expression, restrictions women’s sexuality, covering up sexuality, etc., I’d s society in which women are worse officer includes our own past history. Actually, multiple studies of womens’ self-reported happiness/fulfillment/etc. show the opposite: women were happier in the “bad old days.” See here for one [meta-study.](http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969) Of course, you can respond that women back then just didn’t know what was good for them, but then that raises a lot of questions about what you really think about women as independant moral agents. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/46 "2014-11-26T00:55:14Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Actually, multiple studies of womens’ self-reported happiness/fulfillment/etc. show the opposite: women were happier in the “bad old days.” See here for one [meta-study.](http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969) > > Of course, you can respond that women back then just didn’t know what was good for them, but then that raises a lot of questions about what you really think about women as independant moral agents. Happiness and fulfillment surveys are not only subjective and questionable, they’re irrelevant to the issue of the societal status of women and whether they are better off now than before. Exactly what societal and legal freedoms women say they would be willing to give up in order to go back to those days? The right to own property? To enter into contract? To drive? To wear pants? To testify in court against a rapist? To divorce an abusive spouse? To inherit? To make her own medical decisions? To choose her own sexual relationships? To consent to sex at all? It’s silly to even mention it. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/47 "2014-11-26T02:00:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Happiness and fulfillment surveys are not only subjective and questionable, they’re irrelevant to the issue of the societal status of women and whether they are better off now than before. heh, I keep hearing that even in general terms about the overall social/economic situation in my community.\* “Sure, 100 years ago we were poor and there was no social mobility, but our lives were happy and peaceful!” \* Yeah, right. The lives of those who did not die in infancy and who had something to eat that day, and who achieved the very little that was granted for them to achieve and with which they were taught God himself wanted them to be content, perhaps. When you’ve been taught the only things you have a right to aspire to is to find a husband who’ll be a good provider and not beat you, to be approved of by the other ladies at the Church, and live to see your children make it to adulthood themselves, it’s not that hard to feel you are doing pretty well in getting there. The expansion of the status and agency of women as equal participants in society with the fullness of legal rights and duties, full personal autonomy and freedom of making decisions about their lives, will of course lead to more of them saying that no, they are not satisfied with how they’re doing. And that is a positive sign. The insatisfaction of knowing there’s more to aspire to, of knowing that you can aspire to it and have more work to do to get there, of having your eyes wide open to how you are getting shafted… is a prize greater than the bliss of settling for what little there is to settle for. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/48 "2014-11-26T02:09:47Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > [sub]Never read the comments…NEVER READ THE COMMENTS…N…[/sub] Well, now I just _had_ to read them, didn’t I? On the plus side, “The Lonely Conservative” would make a great name for a Republican dating site. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/49 "2014-11-26T02:56:59Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Actually, multiple studies of womens’ self-reported happiness/fulfillment/etc. show the opposite: women were happier in the “bad old days.” See here for one [meta-study.](http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969) > > Of course, you can respond that women back then just didn’t know what was good for them, but then that raises a lot of questions about what you really think about women as independant moral agents. What about men and children? Children, especially, tend to be the real losers when women have limited agency. For example, it’s well-documented that the best thing you can do to improve child health in developing countries is to have a mother with a few years of schooling. Feminism isn’t just about a gift-grab for women. It’s about an entire system of thinking about and acting out gender that is harmful to everyone. There are, of course, also a ridiculous number of things that have happened in the last 40 years that have nothing to do with feminism but could have an impact on these results. I would have been pretty damn happy back then that I wasn’t up for the draft. And there are also a lot of other things that we are still halfway through. Women have joined the workforce in droves, but basic things like pumping rooms are still cutting edge. Transition periods are always harder than what they replace or what is to come. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/50 "2014-11-26T04:15:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The purpose of the judicial system is to bring people before the law and punish them according to the law. > > The purpose of the student disciplinary system is to determine whether a student may continue to attend a school. > > They have nothing to do with each. other. A school can determine whether a student should be expelled for improper behavior regardless of what a criminal court says. > > A criminal court is restricted to determining guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt.” That standard is irrelevant to the student disciplinary system. A school is free to apply a lower standard, such as, “eh, we think he did it.” And it would be perfectly appropriate and valid. Fair enough. You’ve convinced me. Tough spot for the Administration then if they don’t expel and the rapist ends up getting convicted. Even the blowback from not doing it without a conviction means the Administration would make a safer bet expelling someone accused of rape, innocent or not. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/51 "2014-11-26T05:35:07Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Tough spot for the Administration then if they don’t expel and the rapist ends up getting convicted. Even the blowback from not doing it without a conviction means the Administration would make a safer bet expelling someone accused of rape, innocent or not. The administration of UVA obviously sees things differently, since according to the _Rolling Stone_ article the school has never expelled anyone for sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/52 "2014-11-26T12:02:32Z")
> [@Bouncer](#): > > So you believe in a consequence free life then. No, actually you’re the one who believes in a consequence-free life – I’m fairly sure you posted this without the expectation that your future argumentative posts on whatever hot-button topic of the moment would occasionally be followed by a “you know, this guy aspires to maybe someday climb up to the level of scum” message linked to that screed. I guess we’ll see how that works out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/53 "2014-11-26T17:30:57Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > heh, I keep hearing that even in general terms about the overall social/economic situation in my community.\* “Sure, 100 years ago we were poor and there was no social mobility, but our lives were happy and peaceful!” \* Yeah, right. The lives of those who did not die in infancy and who had something to eat that day, and who achieved the very little that was granted for them to achieve and with which they were taught God himself wanted them to be content, perhaps. > > When you’ve been taught the only things you have a right to aspire to is to find a husband who’ll be a good provider and not beat you, to be approved of by the other ladies at the Church, and live to see your children make it to adulthood themselves, it’s not that hard to feel you are doing pretty well in getting there. The study **furt** linked to examined the past 35 years. Any evidence the above is an accurate description of American women’s lives in the early seventies? > [@even\_sven](#): > > What about men and children? Children, especially, tend to be the real losers when women have limited agency. For example, it’s well-documented that the best thing you can do to improve child health in developing countries is to have a mother with a few years of schooling. Feminism isn’t just about a gift-grab for women. It’s about an entire system of thinking about and acting out gender that is harmful to everyone. Again, any evidence that women in the early seventies didn’t have a few years of schooling? And how does lack of feminism harm men? I would agree that feminism is an entire system of thinking and acting out gender that is harmful to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/54 "2014-11-26T17:55:37Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > Again, any evidence that women in the early seventies didn’t have a few years of schooling? And how does lack of feminism harm men? > > I would agree that feminism is an entire system of thinking and acting out gender that is harmful to everyone. You’ve missed the point entirely. Feminism isn’t about happiness. It is about a freer, fairer, more just world. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/55 "2014-11-26T19:13:44Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Except the multiple cases that are _not_ that simple. What sort of cases? It’s really not that hard to tell if a woman is glad you’re getting intimate with her. It’s just as easy to tell if she’s not happy about it. And if for some reason your partner of the moment doesn’t seem enthusiastic about being intimate with you, the thing to do is pull back and find out what the problem is. If you do that, you’re not going to get accused of rape. It’s really that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/56 "2014-11-26T19:32:13Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > No, actually you’re the one who believes in a consequence-free life – I’m fairly sure you posted this without the expectation that your future argumentative posts on whatever hot-button topic of the moment would occasionally be followed by a “you know, this guy aspires to maybe someday climb up to the level of scum” message linked to that screed. > > I guess we’ll see how that works out for you. Boy, you sure told me. And how. It’s nice, though, how you completely missed the point by attacking me personally. And so completely missed it that apparently you couldn’t find it with GPS, a map, MGRS co-ordinates and an aerial spotter for your deliberately dumb, deliberately ignorant, hyper-reactive self. And if other ignorant fools want to point back at that post, it’ll just prove (yet again) how hard you (and they) work at being dumb. As compared to anyone with, you know, actual comprehension of the written word. By comparison, iiandyii, although I disagree with them, at least addressed the content, and did not drop to silly personal attacks. I may disagree with them, but I can respect them for that. You, not so much. Let me know if you want to go back to the actual topic as opposed to insulting one another. Makes no diff to me, though I honestly find it boring. Regards, -Bouncer- PS: Happy Turkeyday for tomorrow! ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/57 "2014-11-27T00:01:23Z")
Here’s a relevant petition on [change.org](http://change.org): [https://www.change.org/p/teresa-sullivan-suspend-phi-kappa-psi-at-uva-permanently/share](https://www.change.org/p/teresa-sullivan-suspend-phi-kappa-psi-at-uva-permanently/share) ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/58 "2014-11-27T05:52:18Z")
I was shocked and horrified to read that story. I couldn’t get through all of it because it was just too much to take in. I skimmed through to the end and felt heartbroken that she wasn’t able to file charges. However, I did read some subsequent articles that she was happy about the support she was getting, so hopefully she will or did file charges. I was happy to see that the school started to take notice and hired an attorney to look at their policies and suspended fraternities until they could have more conversations around their culture. I hope that guy Drew starts getting the message from either the school and/or the justice system because he sounds like he really doesn’t have any idea that he did anything wrong. That’s frightening to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/59 "2014-11-27T06:11:07Z")
If you like University of Virginia, you’re gonna love Florida State… ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/60 "2014-12-01T16:23:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Happiness and fulfillment surveys are not only subjective and questionable, they’re irrelevant to the issue of the societal status of women and whether they are better off now than before. If you find being “happy and fulfilled” to have nothing whatever to do with being “better off,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=4)