# I pit the rape culture at the University of Virginia **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515 "2014-11-24T20:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/61 "2014-12-01T16:44:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > You’ve missed the point entirely. Feminism isn’t about happiness. It is about a freer, fairer, more just world. > [@furt](#): > > If you find being “happy and fulfilled” to have nothing whatever to do with being “better off,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. N.B.: [“Happiness” and “meaning” are not the same thing, and sometimes incompatible.](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/19/a_meaningful_life_does_not_guarantee_a_happy_one_partner/) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/62 "2014-12-01T17:34:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > N.B.: [“Happiness” and “meaning” are not the same thing, and sometimes incompatible.](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/19/a_meaningful_life_does_not_guarantee_a_happy_one_partner/) To give a concrete example, having kids makes people miserable. Raising children is associated with a sharp drop in reported happiness, and happiness doesn’t bounce back till the kids are out of the house. But most people with kids are glad they had them. They add value other than happiness. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2014, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/63 "2014-12-01T18:10:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > N.B.: [“Happiness” and “meaning” are not the same thing, and sometimes incompatible.](http://www.salon.com/2014/02/19/a_meaningful_life_does_not_guarantee_a_happy_one_partner/) True. But your cite suggests that prominent among the things that create happiness but not meaning are money, freinds and health – all things where women have made gains in the last 30-40 years. Meaningfulness was correlated with concepts like family, religion and sacrifice; and while I don’t know anything about trends in sacrifice, I do know that divorce is up, the birth rate is down, and religion is in decline compared to decades past. ISTM that would suggest that in addition to the observable decline in happiness, women (and men, too) are also experiencing less meaning. Do you know of research that indicates that women (taken as a whole) find their lives (taken as a whole) more meaningful than they did in the past? My impression has been the opposite ([see here](http://www.psmag.com/blogs/news-blog/new-research-suggests-everybodys-less-satisfied-33769/)), but I’m open to evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/64 "2014-12-02T01:58:51Z")
Surveys on happiness routinely find that the people of Bangladesh are among the happiest in the world. This is a country with among the lowest standards of living and three quarters of which is routinely flooded. This is a discussion about human rights and justice. To bring up these happiness surveys in this context is among the most dishonest things one can do. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/65 "2014-12-02T04:19:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Surveys on happiness routinely find that the people of Bangladesh are among the happiest in the world. This is a country with among the lowest standards of living and three quarters of which is routinely flooded. > > This is a discussion about human rights and justice. To bring up these happiness surveys in this context is among the most dishonest things one can do. Your claim was that women are “worse officer,” which I took to mean “worse off.” And I repeat - If you find being “happy and fulfilled” to have nothing whatever to do with being “better off,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. And _among the most dishonest things one can do_, eh? Bringing up "happiness in a discussion of being “worse off” is right up there with cheating on a spouse, lying to children, running a ponzi scheme, committing perjury … well, again, we seem to be operating from pretty divergent worldviews. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/66 "2014-12-02T04:33:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Your claim was that women are “worse officer,” which I took to mean “worse off.” And I repeat - If you find being “happy and fulfilled” to have nothing whatever to do with being “better off,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. > > And _among the most dishonest things one can do_, eh? Bringing up "happiness in a discussion of being “worse off” is right up there with cheating on a spouse, lying to children, running a ponzi scheme, committing perjury … well, again, we seem to be operating from pretty divergent worldviews. “Human rights and justice” are fairly objective concepts that have agreed-upon meanings. “Happiness and fulfillment” are totally subjective concepts that mean something different for each person. Apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/67 "2014-12-02T14:12:33Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > “Human rights and justice” are fairly objective concepts that have agreed-upon meanings. “Happiness and fulfillment” are totally subjective concepts that mean something different for each person. Apples and oranges. I responded to post #44. It does not mention “human rights and justice.” No goalpost-moving, please. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/68 "2014-12-02T14:54:07Z")
Sorry, no. Happiness surveys have nothing to do with post 44. The subject of post 44 is the objective social, economic, and legal status of women, not this errant bullshit you’re peddling. Human rights and justice have everything to do with that. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/69 "2014-12-02T15:12:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Sorry, no. Happiness surveys have nothing to do with post 44. The subject of post 44 is the objective social, economic, and legal status of women, not this errant bullshit you’re peddling. > > Human rights and justice have everything to do with that. If you find being “happy and fulfilled” to have nothing whatever to do with being “better off,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. Similarly, if you find peer-reviewed, widely-cited, and since-replicated social science findings to be “errant bullshit,” we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/70 "2014-12-02T15:41:16Z")
What is errant bullshit is Your bringing up the topic of happiness and fulfillment surveys in a context in which it is clearly irrelevant. I can’t help but think it’s a ploy to change the subject and I refuse to assist you in doing that by engaging in a discussion of the validity or relevance of such surveys. In a discussion in which the objective status of women—hue often or likely they are to be forced into slavery, forced to marry against their will, forced to engage in sexual acts against their will, deprived of the right to own property, manage their own money, hold certain jobs, vote, choose to use birth control, testify in court, choose how to dress … Those and similar conditions are the objective ways in which women are unquestioningly better off in our society now. For you to bring up happiness and fulfillment surveys in this context is nothing more than trifling with a serious topic. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/71 "2014-12-02T16:20:04Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In a discussion in which the objective status of women—hue often or likely they are to be forced into slavery, forced to marry against their will, forced to engage in sexual acts against their will, deprived of the right to own property, manage their own money, hold certain jobs, vote, choose to use birth control, testify in court, choose how to dress … Those and similar conditions are the objective ways in which women are unquestioningly better off in our society now. Agreed. And if you were claiming only that women are objectively better off in these specific ways, I’d not have entered the thread, because they are obviously true. But took a step beyond that, and made a broad statement that > [@](#): > > But we have to remember that sexual emancipation, freedom of sexual expression, and the acceptance of sexuality in society has gone hand in hand with the improvement of the status of women. > > Every society that believes in restricting sexual expression, restrictions women’s sexuality, covering up sexuality, etc., I’d s society in which women are worse officer includes our own past history. IMO, the fact that all the widespread objective improvements have led to widespread subjective regression greatly complicates the blanket “women are better off” and have had an “improvement of status” claims. If Mephistopheles were to appear and offer a deal in which one year hence you’d have more money, more prestige, and more of whatever objective goals you’d desire, with the caveat that you’d be less happy and less satisfied with your life, I suspect most people would turn it down, concluding that the deal would not, on net, be an “improvement of status” or leave them “better off.” Perhaps you would; in which case, again, we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. I suspect that what you’re upset about is about things I \*didn’t \*say but that you suppose I think – i.e. that the findings of unhappiness prove that women should all be forcibly kept barefoot and pregnant, or that all social change w/r/t to women in the last 40 years has been a mistake, or things of that kind. Didn’t say that, don’t think it. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/72 "2014-12-02T17:05:08Z")
Getting back on topic . . . [U-Va. president cancels D.C. news event](http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-president-cancels-dc-news-event/2014/12/01/15d8eefe-7960-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html) > [@](#): > > University of Virginia President Teresa A. Sullivan abruptly canceled a luncheon with the news media planned for Monday in Washington, choosing to stay in Charlottesville to speak with students and others in the aftermath of a magazine report on an alleged gang rape at a school fraternity. > > “We have a problem, and we are going to get after it,” Sullivan said in a speech Monday to a selected group of students at the university. I don’t see any of her or the school’s actions taken so far to be particularly effective, but at least I see the possibility of real improvement exists. It’s in the open now. At least the whole thing isn’t being poo-poohed. (so far) ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/73 "2014-12-02T17:11:45Z")
> [@furt](#): > > A > > If Mephistopheles were to appear and offer a deal in which one year hence you’d have more money, more prestige, and more of whatever objective goals you’d desire, with the caveat that you’d be less happy and less satisfied with your life, I suspect most people would turn it down, concluding that the deal would not, on net, be an “improvement of status” or leave them “better off.” Well, myself, I’d take power and knowledge over a certain degree of happiness. I can do more of what I value that way. If I’m less happy, so be it. Especially since, it would seem plausible to think the source of lessened happiness is precisely my attainment of more knowledge concerning what’s possible, more power to do something about it, and the requisite increased levels of regret that come from knowing what’s not possible and from having to have made difficult choices. Yeah–I’d take that. Would you not? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/74 "2014-12-02T17:38:48Z")
I’m not totally grasping why all the frat houses are being suspended based on an accusation at one of them. I think if I were a not-rapist living in one of the other frat houses, I would be pretty upset by that. My general view of colleges is that they are a particularly rapey environment relative to the rest of everyday society. Frat parties might be the most high-profile place they happen, but I’m not convinced rapes are more likely to happen at a frat house than any other place on a college campus. Setting up frat houses as the scapegoat seems to detract from a much larger problem. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/75 "2014-12-02T19:25:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Yeah–I’d take that. Would you not? The way you’ve chosen to frame it, sure. Alternatively, if the source of your unhappiness is that greater wealth just set you on the cycle of endless consumerism, if your greater career success came at the price of less time and energy available for family and freinds, and if your greater prestige complicated and strained relationships with those who you cared about (e.g. breeding insecurity and resentment in your family and community) … well, I’d bet the bargain looks a lot less attractive. So, yeah, we can both construct narratives that conform with the facts. I suspect both narratives contain truth. [Others could add more](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEY58fiSK8E); it’s a pretty widely studied phenomenon. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/76 "2014-12-02T21:36:59Z")
The [Washington](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2014/12/02/rolling-stone-whiffs-in-reporting-on-alleged-rape/) [Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/author-of-rolling-stone-story-on-alleged-u-va-rape-didnt-talk-to-accused-perpetrators/2014/12/01/e4c19408-7999-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html), the [New Republic](http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120450/sabrina-rubin-erdelys-uva-gang-rape-reporting-raises-questions), and [others](http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/2014/11/24/is-the-rolling-stone-story-true/) are critical of Rolling Stone’s reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/77 "2014-12-04T03:43:12Z")
> [@furt](#): > > IMO, the fact that all the widespread objective improvements have led to widespread subjective regression greatly complicates the blanket “women are better off” and have had an “improvement of status” claims. There is simply no connection between objective legal and social improvement in status and self-reported subjective happiness and fulfillment surveys. The latter has zero to do with what I said. They are objectively better off in terms of legal and social standing. And I listed several examples of such legal and social conditions. Tell me again what percentage of women say they are willing to surrender what specific social and legal rights in order to be happy and fulfilled like the women of the past? ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/78 "2014-12-04T04:36:58Z")
Agree to disagree. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/79 "2014-12-04T10:42:39Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Agreed. And if you were claiming only that women are objectively better off in these specific ways, I’d not have entered the thread, because they are obviously true. But took a step beyond that, and made a broad statement that > > IMO, the fact that all the widespread objective improvements have led to widespread subjective regression greatly complicates the blanket “women are better off” and have had an “improvement of status” claims. > > If Mephistopheles were to appear and offer a deal in which one year hence you’d have more money, more prestige, and more of whatever objective goals you’d desire, with the caveat that you’d be less happy and less satisfied with your life, I suspect most people would turn it down, concluding that the deal would not, on net, be an “improvement of status” or leave them “better off.” > > Perhaps you would; in which case, again, we’re operating from pretty divergent worldviews and will have to agree to disagree. > > I suspect that what you’re upset about is about things I \*didn’t \*say but that you suppose I think – i.e. that the findings of unhappiness prove that women should all be forcibly kept barefoot and pregnant, or that all social change w/r/t to women in the last 40 years has been a mistake, or things of that kind. Didn’t say that, don’t think it. When I see crap like this I just keep thinking “correlation is not causation” and that perhaps women just feel safer being honest about how they feel now than they used to. If you can’t see any possibility of things being different, maybe you’re more likely to pretend, to put a good face on things, and ultimately convince yourself that you’re “happy”. Progress comes from discontent, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515/80 "2014-12-04T22:54:17Z")
> [@eulalia](#): > > When I see crap like this I just keep thinking “correlation is not causation” and that perhaps women just feel safer being honest about how they feel now than they used to. If you can’t see any possibility of things being different, maybe you’re more likely to pretend, to put a good face on things, and ultimately convince yourself that you’re “happy”. Progress comes from discontent, anyway. I suspect both narratives contain truth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-rape-culture-at-the-university-of-virginia/705515.md?page=5)