# I pit the Republicans who have opposed social progress by... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924 "2013-06-25T23:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/41 "2013-06-27T00:19:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actual social change and reform **depends** on class warfare (not necessarily in the violent sense, but more nearly so than Occupy Wall Street was). Based on historical experience, we won’t get it as a gift from upper-class liberal policymaking elites or any other. The most we can get that way is some halfassery like the New Deal. And before you ask: In practice, the middle ground between class warfare and letting upper-class elites make the decisions is known as letting upper-class elites make the decisions. Nothing real is really going to change unless and until those elites are deeply, genuinely **scared** – indeed, it’s hardly a change worth making unless it really scares them, that’s how you tell. And it has been a very, very long time since they have been really scared. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/42 "2013-06-27T01:08:02Z")
Its days like this that I LOVE to read places like the Free Republic. The amount of heads exploding is so deliciously delightful to watch! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/43 "2013-06-27T01:13:13Z")
Let say the game isn’t rigged, say that intelligence and ambition are the keys to wealth in America. These are the virtues we are most proud of? Intelligence isn’t a virtue, intelligence is a characteristic, like being tall, or having blue eyes. A good man with vast intelligence is a blessing to us all, a bad man with the same intelligence is a curse. And ambition, a virtue? Inspiration, maybe, is a virtue, its similar to ambition. The inspiration of Michaelangelo when he saw the sculpture of David inside a block of marble. The inspiraton of Jonas Salk who refused to patent his polio vaccine, refusing wealth so that his medicine might be more freely available. Not _that’s_ some fucking! inspiration. But ambition and intelligence directed solely on money? This is what we aspire to? Its the kind of cynicism Oscar Wilde was talking about, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. I’ve seen their ways too often for my liking. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/44 "2013-06-27T01:49:15Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > We’re already in class warfare, the rich have declared the poor expendable a long time ago when they opposed the social progress of minimum wage, 40 hour work weeks, overtime, child labor laws, unions, and any form of worker protection. Your problem is that you think it doesn’t happen > > Every man who loses his job because his company outsources it is a victim of class warfare. Every women who makes less than a man doing the same job is a victim. Every man who works full time but cannot pay for his family is a victim. What legislators and the 99% are doing is simply taking back some of the power that’s been defaulted to the rich and powerful Uhhhhh…if I thought that it doesn’t happen…I wouldn’t have said that we need to avoid/stop doing it, would I? Therefore your statement of what I think is pretty pathetic in its inaccuracy. The person who loses his job through outsourcing is a “victim” of market forces–also of his own complacency that his value in that market would remain constant. He’s no different from a company that sells the same product for the same price, year after year, ignoring increasing competition from more efficient rivals (and then petitions Congress to erect trade barriers when it starts losing market share). In any event, such hate-the-rich tunnel vision will solve nothing. If we kill all the rich people, then the next 1% will be the new rich people, and we’ll have to kill them, too, and so forth, until we’re down to the formerly poor people, who will now be rich on a relative basis, so we’ll have to kill them, too… As I’ve said, the rich _are_ part of society, and any attempt to turn them into the enemy isn’t going to be productive. And a bunch of “99%ers” camped in city parks and bleating that they hated rich people didn’t do much, either, except perhaps clog public toilets and put a burden on police services. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/45 "2013-06-27T01:52:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actual social change and reform **depends** on class warfare (not necessarily in the violent sense, but more nearly so than Occupy Wall Street was). Based on historical experience, we won’t get it as a gift from upper-class liberal policymaking elites or any other. The most we can get that way is some halfassery like the New Deal. How about the democratic process? That’s how the social reforms that have been implemented so far have come about. And many of those came during an era when people _admired_ the rich rather than demonizing them. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/46 "2013-06-27T01:55:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You do not live in Horatio Alger’s America. (Neither did Horatio Alger, really.) So what? That’s a reductio ad absurdum argument. You and another poster seem to think that upward mobility doesn’t take place in America. That’s a just plain silly assertion, and unworthy of further discussion. One of the things that progressives have to avoid is making stupid, hyperbolic statements. Doing so just gives conservative demagogues something to latch onto, take out of context, and beat to death. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/47 "2013-06-27T01:56:20Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > As you “recall”? From your extensive research? > > What I find amusing is the assumption that most of the rich got that way through luck, lying, stealing, cheating, or some combination thereof. I’ve spent long enough in the world of work, and of business, to know that that assumption simply isn’t true. It’s a comforting and rather seductive point of view (for one thing, it allows one to rationalize one’s own perceived lack of material success by saying, “well, yeah, I’m honest, so I couldn’t beat all those crooks out there”), but it’s a fallacious one nonetheless. > > And mobility upward from the extremes of poverty happens all the time. Perhaps not as often as you’d like, but the situations of the poor in this country are far less dire, and less hopeless, than those of the poor in many, many other countries. > > Again, we as a society have to resist the urge to engage in class warfare. It weakens the motivation for actual social change and reform, and ignores the real reasons why we need it. I’m not going to be better off, and neither are you, if we burn Donald Trump at the stake. Cites and everything… ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/48 "2013-06-27T01:59:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And before you ask: In practice, the middle ground between class warfare and letting upper-class elites make the decisions is known as letting upper-class elites make the decisions. Nothing real is really going to change unless and until those elites are deeply, genuinely **scared** – indeed, it’s hardly a change worth making unless it really scares them, that’s how you tell. And it has been a very, very long time since they have been really scared. Then how do you explain the actual, real-world social reform that has taken place in the last 100 years or so? How do you explain the advent of universal health care (however flawed)? If the eeeeevil rich were completely in iron-fisted control, little Joey would still be working 60-hour weeks in the textile factory, wouldn’t he? We don’t need a revolution. We need a continuation of the democratic process, and to move–or lurch–in the direction we’ve been going. Demonizing the rich and igniting class warfare will slow that process down, not accelerate it. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/49 "2013-06-27T02:00:57Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > Cites and everything… The patently obvious needs no citations. I don’t need to prove that upward mobility exists in America–the burden of proof there rests on the heads of those who make the ludicrous statement that it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/50 "2013-06-27T02:02:07Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > So what? That’s a reductio ad absurdum argument. You and another poster seem to think that upward mobility doesn’t take place in America. That’s a just plain silly assertion, and unworthy of further discussion. lol ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/51 "2013-06-27T02:05:34Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Your opinions aren’t that far off from mine, so that really isn’t it. You’re just no where near as smart as you think you are, and you don’t even know it. It’s funny. You’re not a diseased asshole, you’re just someone who’s a lot more sure of himself than he has any right to be. Actually, you don’t know jack shit about me, and it’s amusing, in a kind of pathetic way, that you think you do from reading a few message board posts. I DO “rofl” when YOU accuse ME of intellectual arrogance after you make such an off-the-cuff evaluation. Or when you tell me what I have “a right” to think. I’m sure there is a term for the type of cognitive bias you’re exhibiting, but I’m not going to look it up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/52 "2013-06-27T02:09:03Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > We don’t need a revolution. I’m not **calling** for revolution at this point. I mean “class warfare” in a political-discourse, Overton-window sense, reframing more and more politics in class-interest terms, all while keeping serious discussion of actual revolutionary possibilities on the table at all times, just to keep the whole thing in its proper perspective from everybody’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/53 "2013-06-27T02:10:09Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > lol An exhibition of either intellectual paucity or abject surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/54 "2013-06-27T03:19:51Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > The patently obvious needs no citations. I don’t need to prove that upward mobility exists in America–the burden of proof there rests on the heads of those who make the ludicrous statement that it doesn’t. You challenged me, I provided cites to back my assertion. Hello? The argument isn’t whether it is possible, but how likely. Quit strawmanning, have some integrity. “but I’m not going to look it up.” Right, clearly not your thing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/55 "2013-06-27T04:47:44Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > The patently obvious needs no citations. I don’t need to prove that upward mobility exists in America–the burden of proof there rests on the heads of those who make the ludicrous statement that it doesn’t. lol ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/56 "2013-06-27T07:57:33Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > You challenged me, I provided cites to back my assertion. Hello? The argument isn’t whether it is possible, but how likely. Quit strawmanning, have some integrity. > > “but I’m not going to look it up.” Right, clearly not your thing. Not my thing when the information is tangential to the discussion or irrelevant, true. Especially when you’d have pissed on whatever I said anyway. You actually haven’t provided ANY “cites” to back up your ridiculous assertion that social mobility in America doesn’t exist. I “challenged” you? You got a bug up your ass is what happened. You didn’t draw the distinction between unlikely social mobility and it not happening at all, and lazily settled for a snarky remark instead. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/57 "2013-06-27T07:58:37Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > lol OK, in your case, intellectual paucity. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![tralfamidor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@tralfamidor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tralfamidor)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/58 "2013-06-27T08:11:21Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > You challenged me babble babble And don’t embarrass yourself by calling me an idiot. Disagreement with you does not constitute idiocy. For that matter, an idiot wouldn’t have been able to read or respond to your post (use a dictionary and look up the word). For the same reason, you are clearly not an idiot. A complete jerk, perhaps (and I don’t even know that for certain; I’ve only observed your **internet** personality), but certainly not an idiot simply because you disagree with me. I refuse to call you any names you aren’t entitled to 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/59 "2013-06-27T08:37:16Z")
> [@tralfamidor](#): > > > [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > > > You challenged me babble babble Just so you know, altering the text within a quote from another poster is strongly frowned upon around here. You’re okay with bolding a section to highlight what you’re responding to, or removing a passage and replacing with ellipses, but adding “babble babble” might be over the line. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924/60 "2013-06-27T12:39:03Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > What I find amusing is the assumption is that most of the rich are rich through their own hard work. As I recall, the vast majority are rich for the same reasons that those named Bush, Romney, Kennedy, and Hilton (Paris, that is) are rich. The rules are geared really well to making sure that amassed wealth stays there. Mobility to, and from, the extremes of wealth and poverty are pretty damned rare. You: As you “recall”? From your extensive research? Which I then followed with a citation. Even told you what to Google to find more. Whereupon you moved the goalposts to whether mobility existed **at all** , which no-one here has disputed. You questioned my assertion. I easily backed it. You are either dishonest intellectually, in which case why are you here, or as another posted noted upthread “it’s like you never even read my response”, in which case why are you here? Either way, I think it’s safe to say that with an approach to logic and fact such as you display here, your ignorance remains safe. And I’m pretty sure I’m not losing any points here for finally calling you an idiot, but note I started out trying to respectfully engage your argument. You started out with the sarcasm, “From your extensive research?”, which I shoved up your ass with facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-republicans-who-have-opposed-social-progress-by/661924.md?page=4)