# I pit the short-sighted self serving twits at the New York Times **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359 "2006-06-27T17:01:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/341 "2006-07-04T01:37:40Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Did you miss the VP’s deliberate and covert leakage of classified information? [/QUOTE] Perhaps I’m missing something here. Isn’t it within the purview of presidential power to classify and de-classify? Didn’t Cheney reveal information at the request of the president? Given the information presented in your cite, where is the indictable offence? > [@](#): > > He compromised National security … Please explain exactly how. It is my understanding that the “leaked” information supporting Iraqi WMDs and the Niger allegations were proven to be untrue anyway. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/342 "2006-07-04T01:44:45Z")
That would make sense as far as the WSJ is concerned. If they knew the story was going to break, why not hope for at least one semi-favorable write-up? (This is nothing new in politics.) From what I understand of it, this wasn’t exactly publishing the Enigma Code. This isn’t going to be the fall of the Republic. I think what bugs me most about this situation is the overall immunity of anyone with any info just talking to a person that will publish it on the front page. Sometimes we need to expose wrongs. Sometimes we just need to accept that there are secrets. This case doesn’t really fall under either of those two. It’s an overall view of the endless anonymous cites that by nature can never be fully proven that are published as fact. I see it as an endemic problem caused primarily by a bureaucracy so bloated there is no way to be able to trust anyone. Therefore there are no secrets that are secure. To the US as well as the rest of the world. Probably a seperate issue than the OP, just wanted to try to clarify my earlier points. As far as this issue? I’m more surprised when the sun rises in the east than when something is leaked. Just something that happens and won’t change. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/343 "2006-07-04T01:54:19Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Perhaps I’m missing something here. Isn’t it within the purview of presidential power to classify and de-classify? Didn’t Cheney reveal information at the request of the president? [/QUOTE] Ahh, but if you read the quote In post #331 again, you’ll see that while Bush expressed a desire to have the information declassified and out there, he expected it to go through the normal declassification process, during which such things as implications for national security are analyzed by experts, not covertly leaked according to the VP’s whimsy. The president himself doesn’t usually declassify on a whim, why would it ever be acceptable for Cheney to do so without explicit authorization from the president? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/344 "2006-07-04T01:58:44Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] [QUOTE=Squink] He compromised National security … [/QUOTE] Please explain exactly how. It is my understanding that the “leaked” information supporting Iraqi WMDs and the Niger allegations were proven to be untrue anyway. [/QUOTE] The Valerie Plame’s outing disrupted our intelligence efforts on **Iran** too. > [@](#): > > On Chris Matthews’ Hardball Tuesday evening, MSNBC correspondent David Shuster provided updates on what RAW STORY first reported in February: that outed CIA officer Valerie Plame Wilson was working on Iran at the time she was outed. > > … > > But prosecution documents in the Libby case paint a picture of a white house so intent on undercutting Cheney critic Joe Wilson that officials failed to consider the possible harm to Wilson’s wife or the possible damage to the CIA. In other words, say intelligence experts, the white house war on the Wilsons may have actually weakened the administration’s war on terror. > > Rand Beers: Even at the time of the undermining in the summer of 2003, we were still deeply worried about what was happening in the Iranian nuclear program. So, why would you want to undermine that." > > Presidential advisor Karl Rove has told colleagues he had no idea Valerie Wilson’s status was sensitive. > > As for the Vice President, the Libby indictment states that Cheney spoke to his chief of staff Libby about Valerie Wilson on at least two occasions. One occasion was just hours before Libby allegedly disclosed information about Wilson to reporters Matt Cooper and Judith Miller. > > What did the Vice President tell Scooter Libby? And did either official discuss checking with the CIA to determine if Valerie Wilson’s identity and work were sensitive? Today, the intelligence community is split on whether Iran is close or not to developing a nuclear weapon. And the CIA refuses to say anything about possible sources in Iran. > > Shuster: But the White House has declared Iran to be one of the nation’s biggest threats. And it’s because of jobs like agent Wilson’s that President Bush’s father, President George H.W. Bush once declared that those who expose CIA sources are the most insidious of traitors. I’m David Shuster, for hardball, in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/345 "2006-07-04T01:58:47Z")
You know, this issue is compicated as it is. Bringing in the phone tapping and the Wilson/Plame does not help. But maybe that’s the intent. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/346 "2006-07-04T02:11:47Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] You know, this issue is compicated as it is. Bringing in the phone tapping and the Wilson/Plame does not help. But maybe that’s the intent. [/QUOTE] Well the whole NYTimes committed treason against the US by revealing classified information story has turned out to be a bit of a bust. What with there being no classified information revealed by the Times, the whole exercise in outrage is pretty clearly exposed as nothing but a politically motivated vote getting stunt by the republicans. That being the case, if anyone really wants to discuss the importance of keeping classified information _classified_, the topic has to shift to a situation where state secrets were actually leaked. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/347 "2006-07-04T03:03:43Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Well the whole NYTimes committed treason against the US by revealing classified information story has turned out to be a bit of a bust. [/QUOTE] It seems that the issue of SWIFT being part of the financial tracking efforts is the part that was classified. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/348 "2006-07-04T03:47:59Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] It seems that the issue of SWIFT being part of the financial tracking efforts is the part that was classified. [/QUOTE] That’s like classifying the sink when you tell the world you’re going into the kitchen for a glass of water. We’ve known for over a decade that the government uses SWIFT to track financial baddies (see link I supplied 30 or so posts upstream). Are we suddenly supposed to not know about it or talk about it because some dimwit flathead thought it’d make a neat secret? That’s assinine. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/349 "2006-07-04T03:48:09Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] It seems that the issue of SWIFT being part of the financial tracking efforts is the part that was classified. [/QUOTE] Cite? About “classified” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/350 "2006-07-04T03:59:00Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] Cite? About “classified” [/QUOTE] I didn’t mean is was formally classified. Substitute secret. It is the part that, in spite of all the cites attempting to prove it otherwise, was never divulged to be part of the finacial tracking program put in place in response to 9/11. Something called SWIFT existed: given. 9/11 caused the governement to begin a financial trackiing program: as per the NY Times article. The evidence that the President or someone else in the administration shared the fact that SWIFT was being used in htese efforts: non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/351 "2006-07-04T04:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I didn’t mean is was formally classified. [/QUOTE] Ahh, it’s become politically incorrect to mention it. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/352 "2006-07-04T04:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] We’ve known for over a decade that the government uses SWIFT to track financial baddies (see link I supplied 30 or so posts upstream). Are we suddenly supposed to not know about it or talk about it because some dimwit flathead thought it’d make a neat secret? [/QUOTE] But the way it was being used was different, pinpointing individuals. Hence, the outrage by the NY Times. If, as you say, there was nothing new here, just old news because it was 1) revealed earlier on and 2) we were already using SWIFT in the way that so outraged the NY Times, why didn’t they write about it earlier? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/353 "2006-07-04T05:12:31Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] why didn’t they write about it earlier? [/QUOTE] Perhaps the reporters were busy writing about other stuff, or just hadn’t developed an interest in the program. Why do we get stories about Noah’s ark every few years? Why were shark attacks stories so big a few years ago, and kidnapped white chicks? Why are leggings, layered under skirts, [going to be the hottest fashion this fall?](http://fashion.about.com/od/latesttrends/qt/wtwleggings.htm) The world is chaotic, stuff happens, stories get written. There isn’t always some underlying big important reason. I enjoyed reading the NYT article. I learned some things about funds tracking that I didn’t previously know. Apparently other people already knew those things. They weren’t secret, but I, along with many other people who don’t normally engage in international commerce, didn’t know them. Now I do. It’s interesting to learn things. That’s a major reason people buy newspapers or surf the web; the desire to learn things. A publishing business, such as the NY Times, that recognizes that fact can increase their readership by publishing articles about things that people don’t already know. That’s not a conspiracy to treason, it’s just good business sense. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/354 "2006-07-04T06:11:47Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Hence, the outrage by the NY Times. [/QUOTE] I didn’t see any outrage. It was just a story until the Feds decided to single them out for censorship through intimidation. The only outrage I have seen in the NYT has been their reaction to the odd statements made by members of the administration and some of the congresscritters who are playing “distract the voters.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/355 "2006-07-04T06:16:49Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Hence, the outrage by the NY Times. [/QUOTE] I didn’t see any outrage. It was just a story until the Feds decided to single them out for censorship through intimidation. The only outrage I have seen in the NYT has been their reaction to the odd statements made by members of the administration and some of the congresscritters who are playing “distract the voters.” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/356 "2006-07-04T06:23:33Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Perhaps the reporters were busy writing about other stuff, or just hadn’t developed an interest in the program. Why do we get stories about Noah’s ark every few years? [/QUOTE] Or maybe they revealed a secret program. From the NY Times article I was able to find again: (all emphasis mine) [QUOTE=NY Times] WASHINGTON, June 22 — Under **a secret Bush administration program initiated weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks** , counterterrorism officials have gained access to financial records from a vast international database and examined banking transactions involving thousands of Americans and others in the United States, according to government and industry officials. [/QUOTE] Secret. In the Times own words. [QUOTE=NY Times] **The program, however, is a significant departure from typical practice** in how the government acquires Americans’ financial records. Treasury officials did not seek individual court-approved warrants or subpoenas to examine specific transactions, **instead relying on broad administrative subpoenas for millions of records from the cooperative, known as Swift.** [/QUOTE] “A significant departure”. Somehting different compared to what was done previously. [QUOTE=NY Times] Officials described the Swift program as the biggest and most far-reaching of several secret efforts to trace terrorist financing. [/QUOTE] One of several secret equals secret. [QUOTE=NY Times] Swift executives have been uneasy at times about their **secret** role, the government and industry officials said. By 2003, the executives told American officials they were considering pulling out of the arrangement, which began as an emergency response to the Sept. 11 attacks, the officials said. [/QUOTE] There’s that word again. And not coming from the administration. [QUOTE=NY Times] We remain convinced that the administration’s\*\* extraordinary access\*\* to this vast repository of international financial data, [/QUOTE] “Extraordinary access.” As in access out of the ordinary, a new, higher level of access. [QUOTE=NY Times] The Treasury Department was charged by President Bush, in a September 2001 executive order, with taking the lead role in efforts to disrupt terrorist financing. [/QUOTE] Instigated by 9/11. Not an old mathod of tracking. [QUOTE=NY Times] **While the banking program is a closely held secret** , administration officials have held classified briefings for some members of Congress and the Sept. 11 commission, the officials said. [/QUOTE] The Times keeps using that word for some reason. [QUOTE=NY Times] In terrorism prosecutions, intelligence officials have been careful to “sanitize,” or hide the origins of evidence collected through the program **to keep it secret** , officials said. [/QUOTE] Perfectly logical procedure for a secret program. One that has borne fruit and is expected to bear more. [QUOTE=NY Times] Like other counterterrorism measures carried out by the Bush administration,\*\* the Swift program began in the hectic days after the Sept. 11 attacks\*\*, as officials scrambled to identify new tools to head off further strikes. [/QUOTE] Again, instigated by 9/11. Any mention of financial tracking prior to 9/11 is a different program. The fact that SWIFT had a website (even if it was up prior to 9/11 is immaterial. [QUOTE=NY Times] The idea for the Swift program, several officials recalled, grew out of a suggestion by a Wall Street executive, who told a senior Bush administration official about Swift’s database. [/QUOTE] They don’t mention the date of the mention, but from the context it appears to have been right after 9/11. [QUOTE=NY Times] For many years, law enforcement officials have relied on grand-jury subpoenas or court-approved warrants for such financial data. **Since 9/11, the F.B.I. has turned more frequently to an administrative subpoena, known as a national security letter, to demand such records.** [/QUOTE] Fincial trackin pre 9/11 does not equal financial tracking post 9/11. [QUOTE=NY Times] Underlying the government’s legal analysis was the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which Mr. Bush invoked **after the 9/11 attacks** … Within weeks of 9/11, Swift began turning over records that allowed American analysts to look for evidence of terrorist financing. Initially, there appear to have been few formal limits on the searches. [/QUOTE] Again, the program was instigated by 9/11. It did not appear prior. [QUOTE=NY Times] Despite the controls, Swift executives became increasingly worried about **their secret involvement** with the American government, the officials said. [/QUOTE] I hopr that takes care of the part of the debate having to do with whether or not this was a new and secret program. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/357 "2006-07-04T06:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I didn’t see any outrage. It was just a story until the Feds decided to single them out for censorship through intimidation. The only outrage I have seen in the NYT has been their reaction to the odd statements made by members of the administration and some of the congresscritters who are playing “distract the voters.” [/QUOTE] By outrage I meant their reaction to learning of this program that caused them to compromise—even to a small degree —the administration’s effectiveness in fighting terrorism. I certainbly hope they were outraged, and didn’t out the program due to some minor quibble with it. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/358 "2006-07-04T06:57:07Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] By outrage I meant their reaction to learning of this program that caused them to compromise—even to a small degree —the administration’s effectiveness in fighting terrorism. I certainbly hope they were outraged, and didn’t out the program due to some minor quibble with it. [/QUOTE] Was the WSJ outraged by it? Or is it simply a story? Y’know, news? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2006, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359/359 "2006-07-04T07:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Was the WSJ outraged by it? Or is it simply a story? Y’know, news? [/QUOTE] I don’t know. I don’t know if the LA Times was either. But, for these two papers, it might very well have just benn, y’know news. Once they knew the NY Times was going with it, it was nes. Although, you could argeu that would have had to wait for it to appear in the paper before it became both news and fair game. But if you don’t like the word “outraged”, pick another. How about “troubled”? That word had little if any bearing on the point of my post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-short-sighted-self-serving-twits-at-the-new-york-times/362359.md?page=17)