# I pit the SovCit movement... For a different reason **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2023, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412 "2023-02-26T22:47:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/21 "2023-02-27T04:48:59Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > as an aside how do the SovCit brigade justify being anti immigration (they are AFAIK) I mean if the government is a scam why should it matter if your scam government is the US government or the Mexican government? They don’t, and in fact I doubt many of them think about immigration much, if at all… The sovereign citizen is concerned about THEMSELVES, and how they can solve their personal problems. It’s not, for the most part, a political movement. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/22 "2023-02-27T08:01:26Z")
If the government is a scam, why do they want paper money printed and backed by that government? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/23 "2023-02-27T09:58:05Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > You’re an anarchist, accept that fact. Hey, stop foisting your RW nutbags on us. First it was the libertarians, then the “anarcho-capitalists” and now Sovereign citizens? Naah, fuck that noise. If they’re not left wing, they’re not anarchists. SovCits don’t give a damn about anyone except themselves. That’s anathema to anarchism. Also, some of y’all have some fucked-up ideas of what being an anarchist entails… > [@Atamasama](#): > > They still want to enjoy the luxuries of the modern world > [@ParallelLines](#): > > Being an honest anarchist means you’re accepting a huge amount of responsibility for yourself. You have to manage everything, and/or you have to be a hermit. I think you’re confusing “anarchists” with “mountain men”… ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/24 "2023-02-27T12:22:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Also, some of y’all have some fucked-up ideas of what being an anarchist entails Every conversation I’ve had about anarchism goes roughly like this: **Anarchist** : Wouldn’t it be great to have No Government™? **Me** : Haiti is having a period of no government right now and it doesn’t seem to be going so great. **Anarchist** : Actually, the term No Government™ refers to a very specific type of socialist government. **Me** : Is “false advertising” a crime under this form of government? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/25 "2023-02-27T13:27:41Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > as an aside how do the SovCit brigade justify being anti immigration (they are AFAIK) I mean if the government is a scam why should it matter if your scam government is the US government or the Mexican government? Surely only your true identity as a sovereign citizen is all that matters? In the US at least, a lot of them make some distinction between “types” of citizens, bases on the 14th amendment. So the “proper” (White, naturally) citizens get all the good stuff, while the other citizens (Blacks, women, et al.) have to follow the rules. > **[Sovereign citizen movement | Citizenship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement#Citizenship)** > > American sovereign citizens posit that contemporary United States citizenship is somehow defective or fraudulent, and that it curtails citizens' legitimate rights. Some sovereign citizens also claim that they can become immune to most or all laws of the United States by renouncing citizenship in a "federal corporation" and declaring only to be a citizen of the state where they reside: this process, which they refer to as "expatriation", involves filing or delivering a nonlegal document claiming t... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/26 "2023-02-27T15:04:14Z")
What does any of that have to do with hermits or primitivists? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/27 "2023-02-27T15:14:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > some of y’all have some fucked-up ideas of what being an anarchist entails… I’d be hard pressed to summarize anarchism with any other single sentence better than “The state has no legitimate right to enforce its wishes (laws, taxes, regulations, etc.) on the private citizen.” That is, a first glance, what SovCits believe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/28 "2023-02-27T15:16:30Z")
Please explain how that entails living without modernity or being a hermit. And (as has been pointed out) Sovereign Citizens don’t believe that _no_ state has that right, just the current state(s)) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/29 "2023-02-27T15:19:45Z")
Well both things have a long tradition in anarchism going back to Henry Thoreau and Tolstoy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/30 "2023-02-27T15:28:20Z")
Neither of those actually lived in any way freely and independently, both highly dependent on friends and family. Peasant cosplay is all well and good if that’s your kink, but it’s not actual independence. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/31 "2023-02-27T15:29:00Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > These are simple people, the common clay of the West. You know, morons. Heartily disagree. They are entitled fucks that have built in their own minds a scenario where they get all of the rights, privileges and immunities of American citizenship yet have no responsibilities as a citizen such as follow the law, pay taxes, pay state fees, etc. If they are ignorant then it is willful viz. let me stop researching this as soon as I find something online that says what I want it to say. I watch these SovCit traffic stop videos and I’m at the point of “Stop talking to them and just fucking arrest them, impound their car and let the judge deal with them.” You can’t educate these people by the side of the road because they don’t want to be educated. Deep down they know they’re full of shit but they are like pathological liars - if I keep lying long enough and stick to it eventually everyone will believe me. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/32 "2023-02-27T15:48:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Peasant cosplay is all well and good if that’s your kink, but it’s not actual independence. And don’t get me started on the People’s Front Of Judea 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/33 "2023-02-27T17:12:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Please explain how that entails living without modernity or being a hermit. Note that I and possibly others in this thread talking about “living off the grid” have largely not been comparing SovCits to anarchists, but rather this is a reference to people like the [Montana Freemen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_Freemen), who were SovCits. That’s the sort of thing that can happen when they actually start to act on their beliefs to extremism. A white supremacist survivalist group called the [Posse Comitatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_(organization)) was an old group that sort of evolved into the Sovereign Citizen movement. There are many ties between SovCits and survivalism (what you call “living without modernity or being a hermit”). ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/34 "2023-02-27T17:44:19Z")
If they buy and own property, even if they live in a tent on it, it still gets taxed. And good luck supplying yourself without the use of roads. Sure, maybe you can hunt and fish and do sustenance farming. But you are going to run out of stuff. And none of them want that kind of life. Oh, maybe some could survive for a while on National Forest land. It would be fun for a week or two. Bring a good tent and prepare to walk. A lot. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/35 "2023-02-27T17:58:21Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Note that I and possibly others in this thread talking about “living off the grid” have largely not been comparing SovCits to anarchists ??? > [@Atamasama](#): > > They don’t go **full anarchist** because that takes effort. It’s difficult to do so. It’s a lot easier to change your beliefs than change your life. These aren’t people looking to actually put in effort, for the most part. They still want to enjoy the luxuries of the modern world > [@ParallelLines](#): > > Being an **honest anarchist** means you’re accepting a huge amount of responsibility for yourself. You have to manage everything, and/or you have to be a hermit. My emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/36 "2023-02-27T18:14:55Z")
I used to believe (like some people in this thread seem to believe) that anarchists wanted a world without organization (thus the references to post offices and the like), when in fact as I came to realize what they want is a world without _coercion_, organization would still exist but without forcing anyone to participate (@MrDibble please correct me if I’m wrong). I’m not sure that it would work, but at least I’m not misrepresenting their views anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/37 "2023-02-27T18:22:38Z")
The whole SovCit thing is not really that different from a cargo cult. They’ve seen a bunch of times where a law they support - something like banning gay marriage, or randomly checking people’s IDs to make sure they aren’t illegal immigrants - gets struck down because of Constitutional issues. They’ve internalized this idea that if there’s a law you don’t like, there’s this other “secret” law you can apply to ignore it and continue doing what you want. They have no idea how this actually works, of course, and that’s the “in” used by the grifters pushing this con: they’re selling access to the magic words that make laws not apply to you. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/38 "2023-02-27T18:24:50Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > These are simple people, the common clay of the West. You know, morons. > > Heartily disagree. They are entitled fucks that have built in their own minds a scenario where they get all of the rights, privileges and immunities of American citizenship yet have no responsibilities as a citizen such as follow the law, pay taxes, pay state fees, etc. > … Agree w your disagreement. I got a little too carried away quoting _Blazing Saddles_ and left a bunch of baby out of my bathwater. Thanks. As pointed out by others above, many of these folks start out by sucking at adulting then get in minor trouble with the law or creditors or both. But their inherently contrarian personality and greater ego than intellect drives them in the direction of more wanting to find a way to kick over the chessboard rather than wanting to play to win. So a toxic stew of selfish _plus_ stupid. But you’re fully right that most SovCits are more monumentally selfish / contrarian than they are ordinarily stupid. I have no comment on the side conversation about what is or isn’t an anarchist and how they compare to SovCits. But I have to compliment the esteemed @MrDibble on this most excellent turn of phrase: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Peasant cosplay is all well and good if that’s your kink, but it’s not actual independence. Bravo Good Sir. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/39 "2023-02-27T18:30:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I have no comment on the side conversation about what is or isn’t an anarchist and how they compare to SovCits. I think the closest are the libertarian Freemen of the Land. Many of those call who themselves Freemen but they are really SovCits. I’m talking about the ones that feel that by natural law, you can’t require a license to fish or permit to build a cabin on your land in the mountains, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412/40 "2023-02-27T18:35:30Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > what they want is a world without _coercion_, organization would still exist but without forcing anyone to participate In some ways, this is even more childish than just wanting anarchy. It’s utterly dependent on non-anarchists following the rules so that the organization everybody wants/needs doesn’t collapse. For all their supposed independence, they’re bigger mooches than anyone. It’s like a guy lecturing me about living free off the land while he’s crashing on my couch, that I bought with my sucker corporate job. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-sovcit-movement-for-a-different-reason/980412.md?page=3)