# I pit the statement from the US Embassy in Cairo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432 "2012-09-11T21:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/221 "2012-09-13T21:15:24Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Thanks, **Kimstu**. But now you’ve given much food for thought. I self-identify (and live my life) as a progressive, but I am not so sure there shouldn’t be some constraints to freedom of speech once it devolves in hate speech. Clearly there are any number of people that can’t handle the responsibility that comes with said right. And no, I rather think “blowing raspberries” is quite enough. > > I mean if I accost a gay person and yell out to him at the top of my lungs: “You fuckin’ faggot, burn in hell!”…he’s supposed to blow me a raspberry? 😕 I think the tradition of free speech in Europe is different from that in the US. Here, it is almost sacrosanct, but Europeans seem to be more accepting of restrictions in cases where there have been historical “abuses”. For instance, the banning of Nazi regalia in Germany would never be considered in the US. (Display of symbols falls under free speech.) I don’t think there is a huge difference, but a noticeable one. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/222 "2012-09-13T21:18:15Z")
I’ll be the first one to admit there is alot of shyt out there I absolutely hate to the fucking ground. There’s alot of people like me too, many more than will admit it or even recognize it in themselves. Call me a hater, and proud of it. But it really makes the decent haters like me look bad when the stinking terrorists use it as a reverse psychology cover up for their criminal activity. IMHO, that’s just a bit excessively bat shit fucking crazy for any rational person to accept. How anyone can condone or support that in any way whatsoever, whether they are the assholes firing the RPGs themselves or anybody who places any credence in the whole mohammed pictures/movies/cartoons whatever concept is to me, just unfathomable. You want to be a bunch or extremist religious zealots and go around killing people to get attention or make your political moves, fine. More allah, allah akbar to you. Just don’t try to cover it up with some pathetic excuse about religious oppression. It’s wearing a bit thin. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/223 "2012-09-13T21:23:35Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Clearly there are any number of people that can’t handle the responsibility that comes with said right. Rights only for those who can handle the responsibility? And who decides that? The state? Yeah, that’ll work well, no dangers there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/224 "2012-09-13T21:23:45Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I mean if I accost a gay person and yell out to him at the top of my lungs: “You fuckin’ faggot, burn in hell!”…he’s supposed to blow me a raspberry? 😕 No, AFAICT (and note that IANAL, oh my, ILA\*), that would probably fall under the “fighting words” exception to protection of speech, as mentioned in the above quote. Insulting or injurious speech that is likely “to incite an immediate breach of the peace” isn’t legally protected. And yelling that sort of vileness at a gay person in public would very likely result in some serious peace-breachin’. However, it **is** a protected form of expression to write on a sign “FAGGOTS SHALL BURN IN HELL” and wave it around at a protest against marriage equality, for example. (If it weren’t, the Westboro Baptists would be SOL.) I think that distinction is a valid and sensible one. Everybody needs to grow a thick skin about public expressions of hateful opinions in general, but nobody should be expected to put up with having hateful insults screamed at them personally. - I love acronyms! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/225 "2012-09-13T21:27:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No. > > I’m surprised this needs to be explained. > > If I start shouting hateful, horrible words at your wife/husband (if you don’t have one pretend you do for sake of argument) will you stand there and shrug deeming it my right to free speech or will you take action to defend her/him? > > We ALL have the right to say what we want (within some moderate restrictions such as slander). That does not mean we spout whatever goofy shit crosses our mind. > > Words have power and have an effect and ignoring that to suggest because we _can_ say whatever we want it is somehow ok to say whatever we want is short sighted in the extreme. I am willing to bet you self-censor yourself on a near daily basis and moderate what you say from what is actually on your mind. > > Make no mistake, Muslims (some of them at least) need to get a thicker skin and be more tolerant. Their beliefs are not universally shared and they have no right to impose their restrictions on someone else who does not agree with them. > > That said the movie in question (I have watched some of it) is not fair comment or parody or comedy or anything other than a poorly made hateful smear. OF COURSE it is going to piss people off! > > Yes, Muslims should have looked at it and blown it off for the bullshit it is. In any population of millions you are bound to find someone who you intensely dislike. Killing others because they share nothing more than a nationality with that person is flat out retarded. > > With that in mind the person making that film is aiming to incite and he succeeded. He got people killed as a result. > > Words have consequences and that should be considered before you speak. What a heaping pile of steaming doublespeak. Trying to equate someone screaming hateful things directly at your wife and a friggin movie talking about a religion is comparing things that are as far apart as a moon of Jupiter and my cat’s ball with the little bell in it. We have every right to criticize a people, a nation, a club or a religion. And if we do so we have every right to expect that violence won’t happen to ourselves. If you scream racial epithets while walking through a black neighborhood, you might very well get you ass kicked, but that in NO way excuses the people who attack you. That’s what you don’t seem to get. You’re falling into the exact trap the Muslim pinheads are setting. They want to move the blame for these acts from the barbarian pigfaces themselves to the people who “insulted” them. Once you agree that that is justification of some kind, then _any_ insult that _they_ deem bad enough to kill and murder people becomes a real defense. Fuck the less-evolved troglodytes, the message that we should be sensing is, "Sorry, you fucking throwbacks. This isn’t the stone ages. People have the right to speak their minds and criticize others. JUst because others might make fun of your contorted belief system that some murderous pedophile was convinced you was a religion, that gives you zero right to harm one hair on their heads. People who view a cartoon of Muhammad dressed up assless chaps with one pig fucking him while he felates another as justifucation for visiting violence on _anyone_, has shown themselves to be something less than human. And should be death with the same way humans deal with rabid dogs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/226 "2012-09-13T21:35:54Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I opened this thread expecting to see post after post of pudding-brained liberal defenses of this appalling statement but I must say the thread has been a pleasant surprise. I don’t think you’ve read it carefully enough. We pudding-brained liberals have been doing a pretty effective job defending the perfectly reasonable statement that the OP was originally upset about. As soon as we straightened out the point that “abusing” a civil right isn’t the same thing as “overstepping” or “forfeiting” a civil right (and once **Martin Hyde** took himself off to howl for the blood of the cursed paynim somewhere else), we managed to settle down to debating some actual points of interest about free speech, repressive societies, and PR manipulation of provocative speech and public reactions to it. Wanna join in? We haven’t been very sweary for a Pit thread, I’m afraid, but we could work on that. [ETA: Oh, never mind, **magellan01** ’s here.] > [@aldiboronti](#): > > Rights only for those who can handle the responsibility? And who decides that? The state? Yeah, that’ll work well, no dangers there. Hear hear. European societies can criminalize hate speech if they choose, but that’s not how we roll in the US, and I think it would be a big mistake to try. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/227 "2012-09-13T21:46:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the tradition of free speech in Europe is different from that in the US. Here, it is almost sacrosanct, but Europeans seem to be more accepting of restrictions in cases where there have been historical “abuses”. For instance, the banning of Nazi regalia in Germany would never be considered in the US. (Display of symbols falls under free speech.) > > I don’t think there is a huge difference, but a noticeable one. NB: I am getting into uncharted waters here, so please, bear with me. You do have laws for [Defamation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander) correct? So in this case the asshole that put this piece of hateful vitriol out could potentially be sued by any number of individual and/or organizations, correct? Because if that is the case, I am fine with it. If not, I still need to mull it over some more. > [@Kimstu](#): > > No, AFAICT (and note that IANAL, oh my, ILA\*), that would probably fall under the “fighting words” exception to protection of speech, as mentioned in the above quote. **Insulting or injurious speech that is likely “to incite an immediate breach of the peace” isn’t legally protected** – my bolding. But this only happens at the personal level? Still not sure I agree. For instance, I happen to know (don’t ask!) there are hard limits as to what can be done in BDSM movies and/or clubs – which is why German and other Northern European pron is highly desired amongst said subset, they have very few limitations is any. So in actual fact _there are limits_ at least in some areas. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/228 "2012-09-13T21:49:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s precisely “feelings about the truthfulness and wisdom of the message” of a particular item of speech that tend to cloud people’s judgement about whether and how that speech should be protected. What you seem to be missing is that one doesn’t get brownie points for being offended by the movie’s message - that’s virtually universal (certainly here, and in the newspaper editorial Professor Nitwit was responding to, while arguing that the person responsible should be arrested). Not sure why you felt compelled to jump in and say “I agree with pretty much everything she said about the film”, when her objections to its content were not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/229 "2012-09-13T21:55:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You do have laws for [Defamation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander) correct? So in this case the asshole that put this piece of hateful vitriol out could potentially be sued by any number of individual and/or organizations, correct? Because if that is the case, I am fine with it. If not, I still need to mull it over some more. No, I don’t think the filmmaker can be sued under U.S. law. Slander involves more than just saying really nasty things about someone, and views like ‘Muhammad was a pedophile and a lush’ would be protected opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/230 "2012-09-13T22:01:45Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > You do have laws for Defamation correct? So in this case the asshole that put this piece of hateful vitriol out could potentially be sued by any number of individual and/or organizations, correct? Because if that is the case, I am fine with it. If not, I still need to mull it over some more. AFAIK, in the US laws against defamation are pretty specific and limited, and not very “plaintiff-friendly”, as your link says. In particular, I don’t think it’s considered possible to “defame” or “slander” a historical figure from antiquity. Certainly, if the Prophet Muhammad or his contemporaries portrayed in the film were alive today, I should think they could sue the pants off the filmmaker(s), but I don’t believe that any modern Muslim individual or institution would have a case. I am still NAL, though. > [@RedFury](#): > > But this only happens at the personal level? Still not sure I agree. For instance, I happen to know (don’t ask!) there are hard limits as to what can be done in BDSM movies and/or clubs – which is why German and other Northern European pron is highly desired amongst said subset, they have very few limitations is any. So in actual fact _there are limits_ at least in some areas. Errrr…I’m not very familiar with the genres and hobbies you’re talking about, but surely it’s not **speech** _per se_ that’s being limited in the circumstances you mention? I mean, AFAIK in the US you can **verbally describe** the most over-the-top hardcore S&M pronny stuff you can think of and put the description on your website and nobody can do a thing to you legally. That’s protected speech. Acting it out in person or on camera, though, would be a different story. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/231 "2012-09-13T22:02:19Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Something to with the fact that you guys don’t [look all that scary](http://www.thalatta.org/ALP/images/20110122163548_buddist_monk%20%20001.jpg)? Master Po in _Kung Fu_ didn’t **look** all that scary either . . . but he was stone blind and he could still turn a young Chuck Norris into catfood . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/232 "2012-09-13T22:09:12Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Wouldn’t secularization by definition reduce the power of any and all religions? > > I’m not sure that we should try to achieve it the same way Stalin and Mao did in Russia and China. . . . Wait, not so fast, let’s think about this . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/233 "2012-09-13T22:11:25Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > So you agree with the Embassy that the film maker was ‘abusing’ free speech? In what way? Pretty much the same way Fred Phelps does? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/234 "2012-09-13T22:19:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I don’t think the filmmaker can be sued under U.S. law. Slander involves more than just saying really nasty things about someone, and views like ‘Muhammad was a pedophile and a lush’ would be protected opinion. Don’t know why but when reading what you guys are writing I keep thinking that your rights end where mine start. And that’s where I am having trouble processing this info. Does that make sense? > [@Kimstu](#): > > …Errrr…I’m not very familiar with the genres and hobbies you’re talking about, but surely it’s not **speech** _per se_ that’s being limited in the circumstances you mention? > > I mean, AFAIK in the US you can **verbally describe** the most over-the-top hardcore S&M pronny stuff you can think of and put the description on your website and nobody can do a thing to you legally. That’s protected speech. Acting it out in person or on camera, though, would be a different story. You are correct. Analogy fail. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Master Po in _Kung Fu_ didn’t **look** all that scary either . . . but he was stone blind and he could still turn a young Chuck Norris into catfood . . . No way! Have some respect for the Chuckmeister! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/235 "2012-09-13T22:19:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Thanks, **Kimstu**. But now you’ve given much food for thought. I self-identify (and live my life) as a progressive, but I am not so sure there shouldn’t be some constraints to freedom of speech once it devolves in hate speech. Clearly there are any number of people that can’t handle the responsibility that comes with said right. And no, I rather think “blowing raspberries” is quite enough. > > I mean if I accost a gay person and yell out to him at the top of my lungs: “You fuckin’ faggot, burn in hell!”…he’s supposed to blow me a raspberry? 😕 Is the “rasberry” part essential? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/236 "2012-09-13T22:21:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is the “rasberry” part essential? Ask **Kimstu**. I’m a noob at this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/237 "2012-09-13T22:24:30Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [Defamation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slander) correct? So in this case the asshole that put this piece of hateful vitriol out could potentially be sued by any number of individual and/or organizations, correct? Because if that is the case, I am fine with it. If not, I still need to mull it over some more. Well, no. Mohammed is dead, and it is no tort to slander/libel the dead, and nobody has standing to sue for damage to a dead person’s reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/238 "2012-09-13T22:25:48Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Don’t know why but when reading what you guys are writing I keep thinking that your rights end where mine start. And that’s where I am having trouble processing this info. You don’t have a right not to be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/239 "2012-09-13T22:30:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Don’t know why but when reading what you guys are writing I keep thinking that your rights end where mine start. And that’s where I am having trouble processing this info. Think of it this way: European public speech plays by the rules of Great Debates, whereas American public speech plays by the rules of the BBQ Pit. We can have just as good discussions as you can when the occasion arises, but we’re allowed to call names more. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/240 "2012-09-13T22:32:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is the “rasberry” part essential? I saw what you did there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=13)