# I pit the statement from the US Embassy in Cairo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432 "2012-09-11T21:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/261 "2012-09-14T16:43:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The US Embassy was still perfectly correct to denounce and repudiate the movie I think almost everyone agrees with this part. > [@](#): > > as an abuse of the right of free speech But not this part. I think it’s more than reasonable to cut the authors some slack since they didn’t want their embassy burned down, but I’m not sure about this idea of abusing your right to free speech or about the idea of speech "hurting’ someone else’s beliefs. That being said, most of the uproar over the statement itself is based on lies, particularly the lie that it was put out after the violence started rather than before it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/262 "2012-09-14T16:46:33Z")
I guess my problem with the whole thing is that the statement was kind of pointless. How many of the protestors speak English, let alone read the press release? Hell, does anyone think the mob would calm down and disperse if the ambassador went outside and said, “we denounce the film!” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/263 "2012-09-14T16:47:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, the Onion nails it (warning, NSFW! Not at all!) > > [http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/](http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/) > > 😃 Wow, Ganesha is very, very giving. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/264 "2012-09-14T16:49:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I guess my problem with the whole thing is that the statement was kind of pointless. How many of the protestors speak English, let alone read the press release? Hell, does anyone think the mob would calm down and disperse if the ambassador went outside and said, “we denounce the film!” Regardless of how word got out, someone was going to ask them to say something about the movie at some point and making their position clear was the sensible thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/265 "2012-09-14T16:54:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think almost everyone agrees with this part. > > But not this part. I think it’s more than reasonable to cut the authors some slack since they didn’t want their embassy burned down, but I’m not sure about this idea of abusing your right to free speech or about the idea of speech "hurting’ someone else’s beliefs. That being said, most of the uproar over the statement itself is based on lies, particularly the lie that it was put out after the violence started rather than before it. Well, apparently Mitt Romney agrees with the latter part. I shit you not. > [@](#): > > "Well, I haven’t seen the film. I don’t intend to see it. I you know, I think it’s dispiriting sometimes to see some of the awful things people say. And the idea of using something that some people consider sacred and then parading that out a negative way is simply inappropriate and wrong. And I wish people wouldn’t do it. Of course, we have a First Amendment. And under the First Amendment, people are allowed to do what they feel they want to do. They have the right to do that, **but it’s not right to do things that are of the nature of what was done by, apparently this film.** […] > > “I think the whole film is a terrible idea. I think him making it, promoting it showing it is disrespectful to people of other faiths. **I don’t think that should happen. I think people should have the common courtesy and judgment – the good judgment – not to be – not to offend other peoples’ faiths. It’s a very bad thing, I think, this guy’s doing.** ” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/266 "2012-09-14T16:57:52Z")
Well, cheers for Mittens. Where did that quote come from? I doubt it will go down well with the Falwell brigade. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/267 "2012-09-14T17:01:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would the government want to make a premeditated attack seem like a random act of mob violence, exactly? You can’t say “exactly.” Damage control in politico-religious terrorist-charged situations is an iffy business. (Do I get an understatement of the year nomination for that? :rolleyes:) Ask the Marines in Yemen how it’s going right now, maybe they can elaborate. I would simply observe that things aren’t always as they “seem.” Duh. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/268 "2012-09-14T17:04:01Z")
Okay. Can you think of _any_ reason - whether or not it’s the actual reason - why they would do that? I’m sure we’d all agree that governments engage in disinformation all the time, but they don’t do it for fun. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/269 "2012-09-14T17:06:02Z")
I posted the following on Facebook… we’ll see if anybody bothers to respond: > [@](#): > > The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” > > “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” > > 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can lie with them.” > > 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing.8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” > > 9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. > > Question(s): > > 1. Was Lot’s offer of his daughters to rape a policy decision, or a statement made under duress? > a. Corollary: Should Lot be censured for panicking and making the offer, though it makes little moral sense? Or was he just a person who panicked under severe, potentially life-threatening pressure? > > 2. Did God agree with Lot’s offer? If not, why did God allow Lot to make the offer? > a. Corollary: Should God be blamed for Lot making this offer under duress, without asking God’s permission before making it? Was Lot’s offer a policy decision of God’s? ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/270 "2012-09-14T17:06:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think it’s more than reasonable to cut the authors some slack since they didn’t want their embassy burned down,.. Fuck the embassy. They would probably settle for not getting killed by an RPG in their safe room. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/271 "2012-09-14T17:07:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, cheers for Mittens. Where did that quote come from? I doubt it will go down well with the Falwell brigade. Sorry, that was from his interview with Stephanopolous at ABC. It was referenced at Maddowblog and TPM. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/272 "2012-09-14T17:12:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well, apparently Mitt Romney agrees with the latter part. > > I shit you not. No, I don’t think he does. The word “abuse” is central to the complaint (this has been discussed a few different times in this thread). Saying the movie sucks and was a bad idea is not the same as saying it’s an abuse of First Amendment rights. It’s also not the same as saying the movie hurts someone else’s beliefs, which one of the most bizarre notions I’ve ever heard. It’s very disrespectful of their beliefs, sure, but how can a belief or a “religious feeling?” be hurt? ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/273 "2012-09-14T17:17:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay. Can you think of _any_ reason - whether or not it’s the actual reason. My guess is nobody from the big cheese himself on down is really too sure what to make of it right now. And there are elements of everything from the publicly obvious to the absolute Top Secret mixed up in it. It’s spun out of control. But the trigger event was a pretext-ed (movie) pre-planned attack to kill Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/274 "2012-09-14T17:18:02Z")
I cannot for the life of me imagine Christians rioting and killing people over [this](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2734#comic) (today’s strip). ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/275 "2012-09-14T17:46:41Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, I don’t think he does. The word “abuse” is central to the complaint (this has been discussed a few different times in this thread). Saying the movie sucks and was a bad idea is not the same as saying it’s an abuse of First Amendment rights. It’s also not the same as saying the movie hurts someone else’s beliefs, which one of the most bizarre notions I’ve ever heard. It’s very disrespectful of their beliefs, sure, but how can a belief or a “religious feeling?” be hurt? You appear to have elided Mitt’s statement that it is “not right” to do it. How is saying that it is not right to exercise a right in a particular manner different from saying that it is an abuse of a right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/276 "2012-09-14T17:52:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You appear to have elided Mitt’s statement that it is “not right” to do it. How is saying that it is not right to exercise a right in a particular manner different from saying that it is an abuse of a right? You can say that a particular action is wrong without asserting you’ve abused your Constitutional rights by doing it. Somewhat ironically the convicted con artist “Bacile” may in fact have violated the terms of an earlier plea deal, so he may have abused _something_. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/277 "2012-09-14T18:06:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow, Ganesha is very, very giving. Count me as one who didn’t know clearing bowel obstructions fell under Ganesha’s main aspect as the Remover of Obstacles. Ignorance fought ! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/278 "2012-09-14T18:12:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You can say that a particular action is wrong without asserting you’ve abused your Constitutional rights by doing it. Somewhat ironically the convicted con artist “Bacile” may in fact have violated the terms of an earlier plea deal, so he may have abused _something_. Then you’re using the term “abuse” in the same way the OP originally did, but in a different way from what several others of us in this thread have been arguing for. I addressed this back in post 188 of the thread in an exchange with **aldiboronti** , which I’ll just quote here instead of paraphrasing: > [@Kimstu](#): > > _To misuse or abuse a right is not the same thing as to overstep its boundaries or to forfeit its protection._ > > To quote Schauer again […]: > > > [@](#): > > > > [A]n abuse of a right must be at the same time an exercise of that right. When a speaker says that A has abused his right to \*x by engaging in conduct _x1_, the speaker appears to presuppose that A’s right to _x1_ was within the right to _x_. And if this is so, then A had the right to _x1_. But to punish A for _x1_ would seem to imply that there is no right to _x1_, and thus that A did not abuse a right at all, but merely went outside it. That is, the filmmakers **abused** their right of free speech in using it to promote ignorance, hatred and resentment via religious bigotry. But their act still fell **within** their right of free speech, rather than exceeding it or going outside it. You, on the other hand, seem to be using “abuse” to mean “violate” or “go beyond the prescribed limits of”, as in your suggestion that Bacile “may have abused something” in the sense that he actually transgressed a legal restriction. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/279 "2012-09-14T18:13:47Z")
May bounteous Ganesh plant you firmly in the Garden, and shower you with organic fertilizer! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/280 "2012-09-14T18:14:30Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Then you’re using the term “abuse” in the same way the OP originally did, but in a different way from what several others of us in this thread have been arguing for. You understand I’m summing up someone else’s argument, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=15)