# I pit the statement from the US Embassy in Cairo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432 "2012-09-11T21:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/281 "2012-09-14T18:19:29Z")
So now Romney has condemned the film and while basically duplicating the WH position, continued to condemn it. I think we’ve discovered Romney’s Energy Independence plan. Spin things so hard that we can generate gigawatts of power from it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/282 "2012-09-14T18:21:09Z")
Whether or not Muslims have legitimate complaints regarding Western disdain for their religious convictions is beside the point. That sense exists, and our enemies exploit that sense to our detriment. Anyone who pours gasoline of that fire acts against our country’s interests, creates enemies out of neutrals. And some of our enemies are not cynics, they sincerely believe that we hate Islam, and hope to wipe it out. It is why they are our enemies! I doubt few, if any, of the rioters saw any such video, or any trailer thereof. I doubt they would look, if you said “Here, look at this video what slanders the Prophet, its proof of Western hatred”, they would most likely take you at your word, they wouldn’t want to see it, wouldn’t want to be a party to such blasphemy. They have ample evidence already, what more do they need? Sometimes one’s duty to one’s country can be as simple as Shut the Fuck Up, Already. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/283 "2012-09-14T18:21:11Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You understand I’m summing up someone else’s argument, right? Nope, I didn’t. Whose argument are you summing up? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/284 "2012-09-14T18:34:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Whether or not Muslims have legitimate complaints regarding Western disdain for their religious convictions is beside the point. That sense exists, and our enemies exploit that sense to our detriment. Anyone who pours gasoline of that fire acts against our country’s interests, creates enemies out of neutrals. And some of our enemies are not cynics, they sincerely believe that we hate Islam, and hope to wipe it out. It is why they are our enemies! And pouring gasoline on that fire in the form of ignorant and stupid lies is especially irresponsible. This is why I’m so adamantly supporting the position that this movie can rightfully be described as an “abuse” (not a violation, not a failure or a forfeit, but an abuse) of free speech. If you happen to piss off narrow-minded violent people just because you tell the truth about something in a thoughtful and well-informed way, that may have unfortunate consequences but it was still a good and worthy thing to do in itself. Such an act is the best possible use of the protection of free speech: saying something that fights ignorance and contributes to knowledge, even though it may initially be very unpopular. But actively promoting ignorance and hatred by spouting deliberately offensive stupid lying shit is **not** a good thing to do in itself. Yes, it definitely still counts as protected speech, but it’s about the most irresponsible, counterproductive, idiotic use you could make of the protection of free speech. And that’s why I have no problem with calling it an “abuse” of that right. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/285 "2012-09-14T18:43:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nope, I didn’t. Whose argument are you summing up? That’s the argument from people who don’t like the embassy’s statement as I understand it. Without the “Obama has more sympathy for terrorists than Americans” horseshit, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/286 "2012-09-14T18:52:29Z")
Why I am getting the sense that this whole “free speech” biz in the US is rather difficult to interpret for even well-versed Americans? Could it be because I am seeing a lack of consensus on the issue both in this thread and elsewhere? Yup. I think that’s it. ETA: I find myself actually agreeing with Mitt’s statement/condemnation. How bad is that? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/287 "2012-09-14T18:54:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Why I am getting the sense that this whole “free speech” biz in the US is rather difficult to interpret for even well-versed Americans? Could it be because I am seeing a lack of consensus on the issue both in this thread and elsewhere? Some of the legal issues are complex, which isn’t surprising, but I think people understand the general idea. Do you feel that you understand it at this point? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/288 "2012-09-14T18:59:15Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Why I am getting the sense that this whole “free speech” biz in the US is rather difficult to interpret for even well-versed Americans? Could it be because I am seeing a lack of consensus on the issue both in this thread and elsewhere? > > Yup. I think that’s it. > > ETA: I find myself actually agreeing with Mitt’s statement/condemnation. How bad is that? Most of the responses are simply variations on ‘I hate what those filmmakers are saying, but I recognize and support their right to say it without being arrested by the authorities’. The debate is over how to express the first part, and whether it is ever proper for government officials to do so. Almost everyone agrees on the second part. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/289 "2012-09-14T19:01:55Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Why I am getting the sense that this whole “free speech” biz in the US is rather difficult to interpret for even well-versed Americans? Because politicians don’t want to piss anybody off, and some large faction of the audience usually takes offense whenever one opens their mouth. Even through an embassy spokesperson somewhere in the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/290 "2012-09-14T19:43:17Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Well, he thought this would be an easy opportunity to criticize Obama for “apologizing for America,” something the right loves to say about the left. It’s typically a low-impact piece of bullshit: the right loves it, the left hates it, it doesn’t mean anything in particular or sway any votes. But the whole thing went wrong because it turned out several Americans were being killed around the same time, so it became a dipshitty thing to say. Since the whole thing was pandering to the rabid right, Romney decided that he couldn’t afford to apologize, so he repeated the comment a few more times and he looks like an asshole who is trying to blame Obama and a tweet for the murders. It was sort of an assolish criticism in the first place since the “apology” came from the embassy in Cairo before any attacks as they were desperately trying to calm people down (I think it was posted on Twitter by a staffer), and Obama and Clinton repudiated some of the language and denounced the violence when they had a chance to weigh in. So Romney is sticking to the criticism based only on an earlier statement anyway and trying to pretend the whole thing hasn’t gone spectacularly wrong for him. So if noone had died, Romney’s statements would have been OK? So it was really just bad luck then. > [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, the Onion nails it (warning, NSFW! Not at all!) > > [http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/](http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/) > > 😃 You don’t need the Onion to tell you that. I don’t remember mass riots over piss christ of shit being smeared on the Virgin Mary. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why would the government want to make a premeditated attack seem like a random act of mob violence, exactly? Failing to stop a plannede attack might look like an intelligence failure. Failing to stop a spontaneous RPG is just bad luck. > [@elucidator](#): > > Sometimes one’s duty to one’s country can be as simple as Shut the Fuck Up, Already. Something Pastor Terry Jones doesn’t seem to appreciate unless he is personally called by the pentagon or some other muckity muck. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/291 "2012-09-14T19:46:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So if noone had died, Romney’s statements would have been OK? So it was really just bad luck then. Actually he knew someone had died. Just not that four people were dead and one of them was the U.S. Ambassador to Libya. Other than that, yes- Romney missed it by _that_ much. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/292 "2012-09-14T19:49:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Some of the legal issues are complex, which isn’t surprising, but I think people understand the general idea. Do you feel that you understand it at this point? Yes, I am. And I thank you and others that have contributed to said understanding. But I also find myself thinking that it’s beyond complex – meaning that it’s also somewhat subjective and not absolute as some here seem to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/293 "2012-09-14T19:51:53Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > But I also find myself thinking that it’s beyond complex – meaning that it’s also somewhat subjective and not absolute as some here seem to believe. No, it’s not absolute. There are very rare circumstances where the government can stop someone from speaking (if it’s likely to bring about “imminent lawless action”) and some cases in which you can sue someone for libeling or slandering you. But those are all tightly proscribed. What are you saying is subjective? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/294 "2012-09-14T19:55:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Actually he knew someone had died. Just not that four people were dead and one of them was the U.S. Ambassador to Libya. Other than that, yes- Romney missed it by _that_ much. Wow. Allusions to both Laugh-In and Get Smart in just a couple of days. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/295 "2012-09-14T19:56:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Most of the responses are simply variations on ‘I hate what those filmmakers are saying, but I recognize and support their right to say it without being arrested by the authorities’. > > The debate is over how to express the first part, and whether it is ever proper for government officials to do so. Almost everyone agrees on the second part. Correct. But as you posit yourself, it’s the first part that is ‘hard to interpret.’ Must say, from my POV it is a fascinating topic and worthy of a thread of its own. I’d be interested in seeing if we (well, Americans really. I have no say in the matter) can come to a consensus. Or if it’s even possible. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/296 "2012-09-14T20:05:33Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it’s not absolute. There are very rare circumstances where the government can stop someone from speaking (if it’s likely to bring about “imminent lawless action”) and some cases in which you can sue someone for libeling or slandering you. But those are all tightly proscribed. What are you saying is subjective? In essence, what **Malthus** just mentioned, i.e. ‘correct’ forms of disapproval per your exchange with **Kimtsu** vis-a-vis Mitt’s statement, Gov involvement or not or rather if & when & how… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/297 "2012-09-14T20:28:01Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > In essence, what **Malthus** just mentioned, i.e. ‘correct’ forms of disapproval per your exchange with **Kimtsu** vis-a-vis Mitt’s statement, Gov involvement or not or rather if & when & how… But what we’re arguing over is merely the **etiquette** of what’s the most appropriate way to characterize a particular instance of protected speech. AFAICT we’ve got rock-solid consensus on the issue of whether this movie drivel actually **qualifies** as an instance of protected speech. Yes, it does. In other words, we’re all in agreement about what the basic US Constitutional rules are here, we’re just debating over the best way to make them clear to the rest of the world when our government talks about them. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/298 "2012-09-14T20:54:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, we’re all in agreement about what the basic US Constitutional rules are here, we’re just debating over the best way to make them clear to the rest of the world when our government talks about them. So we would expect some middle eastern sand rat terrorist bastards to give a flying fuck about that why? While they are the very same people inciting the violence to cover their tracks in the first place? Dude, you really need to pull your head out for a minute. What percentage of the adult population in Tripoli do you think participated in, or presently participates in the unrest there over the past couple days? It’s a very small minority instigated by or loosely affiliated with the local AQ or HQ cells. You know - the ones with the AK’s and RPG’s that like to kill innocent political victims? The vast majority don’t condone or agree with this at all, and they “get it.” “It” being free speech. You know - that stuff a whole lot of them died fighting for earlier this year? From the AP: > [@](#): > > In many places, only a few hundred took to the streets, mostly ultraconservative Islamists - but the mood was often furious. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/299 "2012-09-14T20:56:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …In other words, we’re all in agreement about what the basic US Constitutional rules are here, we’re just debating over the best way to make them clear to the rest of the world when our government talks about them. Don’t know that the rest of the world cares how you apply your Constitutional rights – nor should they. IOW, to each their own. In that vein, I think the original statement from the Cairo Embassy was right on point. Meaning no one really needs a lesson in American free speech – unless, like myself, they take an interest in it – but simply an official statement distancing the US Government from crap like that. That said, the reverse is also true: they are your rules, thus no amount of clamoring from any other nation to the effect of clamping down and/or punishing movies/commentary etc. of this kind should rightly fall on deaf ears as far as the US is concerned. They are _your_ Pillars and that’s perfectly respectable. But many other a First World nation differs, and that’s kewl too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/300 "2012-09-14T21:03:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Don’t know that the rest of the world cares how you apply your Constitutional rights – nor should they. IOW, to each their own. :dubious: Oh, right now it looks as though part of the rest of the world cares a great deal how we apply our Constitutional rights. And because they don’t understand the way it works, many of them assume that for us “permitting” offensive speech is the same as “sponsoring” or “endorsing” offensive speech. And then they get all upset and protest at our embassies. So yeah, I think this etiquette question of how we should explain our Constitutional rights to the rest of the world is fairly important. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=16)