# I pit the statement from the US Embassy in Cairo **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 11, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432 "2012-09-11T21:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/381 "2012-09-18T02:38:08Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > would you feel a single twinge of remorse? No. Keep tugging’ them heart strings if it makes YOU feel better, tho! ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/382 "2012-09-18T03:47:43Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > So just to be a billion percent clear here, at the risk of repeating myself… > > Suppose you are the writer or producer of a TV series and you have an episode that is scheduled to air which contains what you think is a powerful message about race in America, but which contains a lot of fairly raw language, stuff that at first glance might seem insensitive of offensive, but which you believe works together to make an important and meaningful point. > > And suppose your episode is scheduled to air the first week of May, 1992, and wouldn’t you know it, in late April 1992 the Rodney King riots break out. > > And you decide to go ahead and air your episode. And just when the riots were starting to calm down your episode is broadcast, and there’s a renewed flurry of rioting, and the janitor at the local NBC affiliate is beaten to death. (Ironically, your show aired on CBS.) > > The question is… would you feel even the slightest tiny bit responsible? When that janitor’s mother tracked you down and said “you unfeeling bastard! Couldn’t you have waited a month!!! My son is dead!!!” would you feel a single twinge of remorse? This is a red herring. Feeling responsible and being responsible are two different things. Withholding speech as a prudent measure in the face of violence is well…prudent. But it doesn’t mean that not withholding speech would make you responsible for the violence. At the end of the day, the violent IS responsible for the violence. And you are comparing delaying speech with not speaking out at all. It’s not as if there’s a right time to release this kind of a film to Muslims. Are you advocating closing off any expression of opinion the moment that violence is a possible outcome? What kind of world would you want to live in? That is a world where terrorists like Osama bin Laden will regularly get their way. It’s not as if extremist Muslims have been very reasonable in the things that they would act violently about. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/383 "2012-09-18T04:25:03Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > The rape story is questionable. The video has been removed as spam on [this site](http://patdollard.com/2012/09/typical-muslim-men-raped-ambassador-stevens-before-murder/). WARNING: grusome content. The picture looks real and was not removed. The video I have not seen. What I saw was a still picture on TV (CNN I think) of Stevens with his pants around his ankles and the same Islamotard standing with the phone in his mouth fucking him up the bare ass as Stevens limbs dangled near the ground and his body bent double. I can see why they would not show it again out of respect but it was real and horrific. I don’t want to see a video. It was the stuff of nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/384 "2012-09-18T04:27:19Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > This is a red herring. Feeling responsible and being responsible are two different things. How would you define “being responsible” then? > [@](#): > > At the end of the day, the violent IS responsible for the violence. Indisputably true. But, in my view, that doesn’t mean it can’t also be the case that someone else also bears some responsibility. To make a really reductive analogy, if I tell you “hey, you should make sure to take a long walk alone in the east side of town, it’s VERY safe”, knowing that it’s crime-ridden, and you get mugged, the person who mugged you is 100% responsible for the crime he committed. But I’m also clearly somewhat responsible for what happened to you. I feel like you think that saying “person X is partly responsible for situation Y, in which person Z committed a horrible crime” in some way lessens the guilt/responsibility of person Z. Which it does not at all necessarily do. > [@](#): > > And you are comparing delaying speech with not speaking out at all. It’s not as if there’s a right time to release this kind of a film to Muslims. Sure, it’s not a perfect analogy. I was just trying to come up with a situation which would test your “the person speaking is NEVER responsible for the violent acts” position. > [@](#): > > Are you advocating closing off any expression of opinion the moment that violence is a possible outcome? Not at all. I’m not advocating anything. I’m simply disagreeing with your philosophical position. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/385 "2012-09-18T04:28:33Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > No. Keep tugging’ them heart strings if it makes YOU feel better, tho! Fair enough, we disagree. People are allowed to disagree. I just want to make sure I understand your position, which I apparently now do. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/386 "2012-09-18T05:23:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, if you’d like to get hyper-technical, I down say you wanted restrictions on him, did I? Now how about you answer the questions I asked of you? I was responding to “You either believe in free speech or you don’t.” I wish you had taken the opportunity to clarify your argument, because I’m not sure where you’re going with it. I’m afraid I’m going to have to deliver some snark. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > But Anduril. No modification of behavior is necessary. I would denounce hate speech whether it causes riots or not. And the filmmaker/scam-artist was doing exactly that. Now there might be a thought experiment whereby somebody says something “Offensive but valid.” Maybe Salmon Rushdie would fall in that category, maybe not. > > But this one ain’t it. The film was a joke and the creator a felon and liar. > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really think that matters.How about Theo Van Gogh? Or Rushdie? Or The guys at Southpark? You either believe in free speech or you don’t. And before you go crafting some scenario like screaming fire in a crowded theater, shouldn’t we be able to criticize a religion? Even if we do it badly? Q1. How about that Theo Van Gogh! Controversial! Q2. Rushdie: Awesome writer! I enjoyed “Haroun and the Sea of Stories”. Q3. South Park: They are derivative and over-rated. _::sniffs snobbily::_ Q4. Count me in among the believers of free speech, as stated above. Q5. Yes, we should be able to criticize a religion. But if you use hate speech I will criticize _you_. And if you criticize anything with incompetence… you might be laughed at! Overall, since I’m not advocating restrictions on free speech, I can treat each artist on a case by case basis. Then we can argue about it. If I wanted to make blasphemy illegal, I’d have to construct a few over-arching principles. But movie critics don’t have to do that. So there’s no problem denouncing schlocky hate speech (or Der Trihs) while defending _The Last Temptation of Christ_. That would be a tough line to draw if it was done by a censor, but if it’s a matter of discussion… we can discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/387 "2012-09-18T06:30:25Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I was responding to “You either believe in free speech or you don’t.” I wish you had taken the opportunity to clarify your argument, because I’m not sure where you’re going with it. I’m afraid I’m going to have to deliver some snark. > > Q1. How about that Theo Van Gogh! Controversial! > Q2. Rushdie: Awesome writer! I enjoyed “Haroun and the Sea of Stories”. > Q3. South Park: They are derivative and over-rated. _::sniffs snobbily::_ > Q4. Count me in among the believers of free speech, as stated above. > Q5. Yes, we should be able to criticize a religion. But if you use hate speech I will criticize _you_. And if you criticize anything with incompetence… you might be laughed at! > > Overall, since I’m not advocating restrictions on free speech, I can treat each artist on a case by case basis. Then we can argue about it. If I wanted to make blasphemy illegal, I’d have to construct a few over-arching principles. But movie critics don’t have to do that. So there’s no problem denouncing schlocky hate speech (or Der Trihs) while defending _The Last Temptation of Christ_. That would be a tough line to draw if it was done by a censor, but if it’s a matter of discussion… we can discuss it. If you put a fraction of the effort to actually answering what I asked you in Post 356 as you’re putting into not answering it, I, for one, would have a better idea of what you’re feelings in here. Instead you want to snark up the discussion and build some defense as to why you shouldn’t answer. ::shrug:: Now, if you do have a genuine desire to share what you think, go back to Post 356, paying particular attention to the very first question. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/388 "2012-09-18T07:47:26Z")
magellan: Help me out. Restate Q1: “Do you really think it matters?” Do I really think _what_ matters? I could try to parse this further, but honestly I’ve answered your question in 2 different ways. I could keep going, but howsabout just restating your question? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/389 "2012-09-18T11:01:31Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > 1. The “movie” has not one goddamned thing to do with this. It was a preplanned attack, timed to 9-11 for dramatic effect, using the movie as a pretext to stir up their cover (rioters). In other words, the movie **did** have something to do with it. Once again, in this thread we are discussing the free-speech issues posed by the question of hate speech in the context of unrest and violence. Your tiresome attempts to show off your superior political acumen by trying to redirect the discussion to what **you** think the most important political issue is in this situation are **still** completely off-topic. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/390 "2012-09-18T13:51:17Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > What I saw was a still picture on TV (CNN I think) of Stevens with his pants around his ankles and the same Islamotard standing with the phone in his mouth fucking him up the bare ass as Stevens limbs dangled near the ground and his body bent double. I don’t know what you saw and you don’t either. > [@](#): > > I can see why they would not show it again out of respect but it was real and horrific. I don’t want to see a video. Nobody cares what you do or don’t want to see. There are a number of sites shrieking that Chris Stevens was sodomized, and all seem to be repeating the false AFP story. If there were a picture, no matter how graphic, it would be out there on the first page of every one of those stories, but it’s nowhere to be seen. From the timeline I’ve seen regarding the already well-known (and graphic) photos of Chris Stevens near death, the “islamotard” with the phone in his mouth was part of the group trying to rescue people from the embassy (it seems apparent that no one knew at that moment that the injured man was the U.S. Ambassador). Your story doesn’t hold up to even mild scrutiny. Your claim that you are too squeamish to manage a cite is one of the more pathetic evasions I’ve ever seen. Admit, if only to yourself, that you saw no such picture (on CNN!?!?) and that you are only interested in inventing a new horror in an already horrific story. > [@](#): > > It was the stuff of nightmare. …daydreams more like it. ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/391 "2012-09-18T14:23:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In other words, the movie **did** have something to do with it. No it Did Not. Those terrorists could have taken their pick from any of a multitude of pieces of crap available to be dug up from dozens of places on the Internet. They did what they did for alterior motives and the subject of movies and free speech has not one goddamned to do with this issue. Free speech is not the issue here. Wow, you are dense. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/392 "2012-09-18T14:25:23Z")
So, **Anduril** , you are the President. How exactly are you going to ‘correct’ the rioters? Without weasel words like “by any means necessary”, please, specifics? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/393 "2012-09-18T15:20:24Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > No it Did Not. Those terrorists could have taken their pick from any of a multitude of pieces of crap available to be dug up from dozens of places on the Internet. Right. And whichever piece of crap they picked would have had something to do with the resulting outrage and riots, because many gullible people would have seen it and got mad about it. I’m not the one being dense here, pal. You’re the one who’s so eager to get patted on the head for your acute political and social analysis of the terrorists’ manipulation of a random piece of hate speech to foster anger and violence that you’re unable to discern that that’s not really what this discussion is about. The key issue of the thread is the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech. _Even if the hate speech in question was deliberately manipulated by opportunists to provoke offense and disruption instead of spontaneously generating them, this issue is still valid and important._ ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/394 "2012-09-18T15:52:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The key issue of the thread is the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech. OK, then. Are you one of the ones not supporting free speech? becuase I don’t believe anyone has come out not condemning hate speech yet. But there sure do seem to be a few questioning free speech. So which is it? Or will you continue trying to ride the fence on this, in this inane justification of an incredibly stupid position attempting to outline some incipid grey area where none exists? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/395 "2012-09-18T16:04:17Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > OK, then. Are you one of the ones not supporting free speech? becuase I don’t believe anyone has come out not condemning hate speech yet. > > But there sure do seem to be a few questioning free speech. Who’s “not supporting free speech”, or even “questioning free speech”? AFAICT, everybody in this thread agrees that the filmmaker(s) who created _Innocence of Muslims_ were exercising their constitutional right to free expression and thus are, and should be, immune to any legal penalties for it. That’s supporting free speech. Opining that a particular item of speech contained a metric assload of stupid and hateful, and that the slobbering dickwad(s) who perpetrated it should have known better and kept their mouths shut, is not in any way a failure to support free speech, nor is it even a “questioning” of free speech. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/396 "2012-09-18T16:21:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Opining that a particular item of speech contained a metric assload of stupid and hateful, and that the slobbering dickwad(s) who perpetrated it should have known better and kept their mouths shut, is not in any way a failure to support free speech, nor is it even a “questioning” of free speech. I heartily disapprove of pretty much everything written in Mein Kampf. I wonder if that makes me an enemy of free speech? ---
**Author:** ![kwimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@kwimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kwimby)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/397 "2012-09-18T16:34:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The key issue of the thread is the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech. It’s not an issue. Why do you keep insisting it is? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/398 "2012-09-18T17:05:05Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > So, **Anduril** , you are the President. How exactly are you going to ‘correct’ the rioters? Without weasel words like “by any means necessary”, please, specifics? I have no idea. In fact, I think that the President handled it quite well. I’m merely responding to people who insist on blaming the filmmaker for the violence. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/399 "2012-09-18T17:09:39Z")
> [@kwimby](#): > > It’s not an issue. Why do you keep insisting it is? Because it’s what everyone except you is discussing, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2012, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432/400 "2012-09-18T17:12:36Z")
[QUOTE=kwimby at 9:52 AM] > [@Kimstu](#): > > The key issue of the thread is the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech. OK, then. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=kwimby at 10:34 AM] > [@Kimstu](#): > > The key issue of the thread is the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech. It’s not an issue. [/QUOTE] Dude, if you can’t even make up your mind whether **you** consider the topic of this thread an “issue”, you shouldn’t be pestering the rest of us. Seriously, if you don’t want to talk about the relationship between support for the right of free speech and condemnation for hate speech as an offensive and disruptive use of speech, _you don’t have to_. Feel free not to participate in the thread. But at this point, your incoherent and belligerent interruptions to repeatedly complain that other people are having the temerity to talk about something you’re not interested in talking about are just making you look like a troll. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-statement-from-the-us-embassy-in-cairo/634432.md?page=21)