# I pit the substandard governmental response to the situation in New Orleans. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747 "2005-09-02T16:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/101 "2005-09-03T04:55:33Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > **Scylla…** what the fuck? > > Give me the numbers on the estimated 20,000 people who were involved in the looting. Listen, I’ve said it before: looting sucks, but why is it a major focus instead of ensuring that law and order are in place. Exactly, because it’s an impediment to ensuring that. I don’t mean just the looters, the tales we’re hearing of rape and murder are just terrible and I’ve seen the images. There’s a lot more of it going on then I would have expected. > [@](#): > > Do you think that there is any place in America that after a major disaster, when there is no communication or presence of law enforcement, that it would be safe in the streets? September 11, the earthquake in San Francisco. I dunno why, but for some reason it seemed that there wasn’t much opportunism during those disasters. Everybody seemed to be pulling together. > [@](#): > > The fact that this is a major focus of what’s going on is tragic. No. The fact that it’s going on is tragic. > [@](#): > > What coverage are you watching? At the Convention Center, I saw a nurse rescuing a child in diabetic shock. She needed insulin and screamed for it. Somehow, someone in the crowd produces insulin (no doubt one of the worthless looters). Child’s life is saved. One man, probably in his twenties, rowed a boat from the housing project with EIGHTEEN children by himself because their mothers couldn’t travel in the boat. You seem to think that I’m making some kind of blanket statement. I’m not. I’m saying that there’s too much looting going on. Too much opportunism. I heard about these people from Lake Charles who took their boats down to help get people out. After yesterday they had to stop. They were getting shot at. > [@](#): > > Christ, I want to be charitable, but part of me wants to tell you to wake the fuck up and realize that EVERY reporter on EVERY network I have watched - FOX, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR - has commented on the way that people, considering the horror they have experienced, are generally calm and working to help each other. Yes. I’ve seen that too. I’ve also seen the other parts. It disgusts me. > [@](#): > > Where the fuck do you put garbage where the cans are overflowing - hello, no sanitation in town right now! - and when these same people are trying to stack dead bodies away from the living. I dunno. I’ve seen film from inside the stadium. It’s kind of strange. There are… islands where people are pulling together, keeping things clean, helping each other. There are also murdered and raped children in freezers, shootings, people afraid to go to the bathroom and having to defecate on the floor for fear of being killed. It’s ugly. [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts\_nm/mayhem\_dc](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc) > [@](#): > > I’m going to attribute this ignorant nonsense to the late hour. I stand behind it. I just don’t think you’re getting my drift. ---
**Author:** ![Large\_Marge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/50afbb/32.png) [@Large\_Marge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Large_Marge)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/102 "2005-09-03T04:56:02Z")
> [@Mama Tiger](#): > > Well, considering that I just left New Orleans a month ago and am intimately familiar with every portion of all those highways, have joined in previous evacuations, and have a pretty damn good idea of what the roads are like there, I’d say I have a damn sight more knowledge of it than you do. > > And I didn’t say I knew they had the trucks ready to go and didn’t send them. I said the excuse that there weren’t roads open won’t fly because **there was a major highway open all along**. What part of that sentence do you fail to understand? Two days ago, a reporter for CNN, standing in the French Quarter, said that he had bought a tent to sleep in that night but that someone from CNN drove in an **RV**. The RV was close enough that the reporter pointed in the direction of the RV while he was talking about it, as though it were across the street. So, if you could get an RV into the French Quarter TWO DAYS AGO … ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/103 "2005-09-03T04:56:55Z")
Charmaine Neville is a hero. And I know there are others who have done similar things. > [@](#): > > And it came to a point, it really did come to a point, when these young men were so frustrated that they did start shooting. They weren’t trying to hit the helicopters, they figured that maybe they weren’t seeing, maybe if they hear this gunfire, they will stop then. But that didn’t help us, nothing like that helped us. I suggested that the “snipers” might have been people trying to get the attention of the choppers in another thread earlier. People actually thought that “lawless thug animals” were shooting at big shiny metal things for fun, rather than desperately trying to get the attention of rescuers. I’m sure if they had rescue flares they would have used them instead. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/104 "2005-09-03T04:57:31Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Think back to the middle ages. When a castle fell and the town was destroyed, the people blamed the king. Guess what happened after that? The next community came up with a better system, structure and protocol. People, as always, adapted and changed. For the most part, we adapt and change based on experience. This situation has never been experienced before. We’re still learning. We have experienced massive flooding before. We have experienced massive hurricane damage before. We have experienced war before. We have experienced riots and unrest before. And we set up a system–supposedly!–designed to take care of situations that we have never experienced before. We are NOT in the Middle Ages! Thank God we aren’t. If we were Bush’s head would be rolling down the street right now. The President went “tsk tsk tsk” at all the people looting stores for provisions, calling for zero tolerance against crime. Why didn’t he call for zero tolerance against people dying of dehydration? Why does it seem like he was made aware of the looting and crime before the suffering and dying? I don’t blame the Prez for any of this mess, but you know what? I don’t feel comforted knowing he’s in charge right now. He’s saying and doing all the wrong things. The more I look at his smirking chimpface, the angier I get. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/105 "2005-09-03T05:13:16Z")
I disagree with your timeline. Anheuser Busch had donated over 12,000 cases of water by Monday morning. It was shipped, at the company’s expense, to Montgomery, AL for staging, and that wasn’t even the first water available. The supplies were available for almost immediate relief. Also, guess where the nearest Chinooks are. [Fort Rucker, Alabama](http://www-rucker.army.mil/helicopters/chinook.html), the home of all Army helicopter training, and a mere hop from the Gulf Coast. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/106 "2005-09-03T05:15:05Z")
Errr, that was to **kinoons**. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/107 "2005-09-03T05:16:57Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > September 11, the earthquake in San Francisco. I dunno why, but for some reason it seemed that there wasn’t much opportunism during those disasters. Everybody seemed to be pulling together. I think this is a completely different situation. 9/11 - as the disaster unfolded, police and fire forces are heading en masse to the WTC. Same at the Pentagon. Brave men and women died trying to save lives minutes after the first plane hit. SF is a better comparison; however the reports initially exaggerated looting… it was later discovered that very few incidents took place. Everyone seems to be pulling together, from what I’m seeing, with little help from the authorities (again, not to dismiss or ignore those National Guardsmen, police, emergency personnel, etc. who are on the ground working, as well as the Coast Guard, who has saved about 10,000 people so far). I am loathe to compare disasters - but after the SF earthquake, it was possible to move around somewhat. Flooding makes it a hell of a lot more difficult. Speaking of pulling together and acts of heroism - Greta Van Susteren is interviewing a young Black man who (I hate that she described it this way; “stole”) a school bus, picked up 70 people including the elderly and newborns, and - having never driven a bus before - drove to Houston. The passengers all chipped in to buy gas on the way. Those are the kinds of stories that should be getting airtime. I don’t doubt for a second that there are some horrible acts of lawlessness occuring right now. But I think our attention is easily focused on those events, because we can blame those people and not feel empathy or responsibility for their plight. And I don’t mean personal responsibility - responsibility as a community. ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/108 "2005-09-03T05:18:36Z")
I don’t know how I can live in this country any more. I don’t know how I can ever look at the American flag again and not want to vomit. the truth of what happened in the Superdome and Convention Center “shelters” begins to come out: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts\_nm/mayhem\_dc](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc) > [@](#): > > Leroy Fouchea, 42, waited in the sweltering heat for an hour to get his ration – his first proper food since Monday – and immediately handed it over to a sickly friend. > > He then offered to show reporters the dead bodies of a man in a wheelchair, a young man who he said he dragged inside just hours earlier, and the limp forms of two infants, one just four months old, the other six months old. > > “They died right here, in America, waiting for food,” Fouchea said as he walked toward Hall D, where the bodies were put to get them out of the searing heat. > > He said people were let die and left without food simply because they were poor and that the evacuation effort earlier concentrated on the French Quarter of the city. “Because that’s where the money is,” he spat. > > A National Guardsman refused entry. > > “It doesn’t need to be seen, it’s a make-shift morgue in there,” he told a Reuters photographer. “We’re not letting anyone in there anymore. If you want to take pictures of dead bodies, go to Iraq.” > > … > > Other survivors recounted horrific cases of sexual assault and murder. > > Sitting with her daughter and other relatives, Trolkyn Joseph, 37, said men had wandered the cavernous convention center in recent nights raping and murdering children. > > She said she found a dead 14-year old girl at 5 a.m. on Friday morning, four hours after the young girl went missing from her parents inside the convention center. > > “She was raped for four hours until she was dead,” Joseph said through tears. “Another child, a seven-year old boy was found raped and murdered in the kitchen freezer last night.” > > Several others interviewed by Reuters told similar stories of the abuse and murder of children, but they could not be independently verified. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/109 "2005-09-03T05:19:47Z")
As far as local government response goes (yes I’m bringing up my own experience again) we had [Pat](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/weather/jan-june97/flood_4-21a.html) [Owens](http://www.cnn.com/WEATHER/9704/19/ndakota.flooding/index.html) A Democrat, but she held her shit together long enough to offer leadership. Much more we felt than anything coming from Washington. It was local and personal. We needed someone of our own to let us know what was going on. What was happening and what was to be expected. She (I think) retired from politics save for a few speeches for Heitkamp during her run for Governor. Hoeven won, but Owens would get my vote if she runs again. Sadly, I suspect the stress was just too much. She knew what was she was doing. And Govenor Shafer was right alongside her a day or two after the dike broke. (Can’t keep the dates straight. It was a little intense abandoning and losing we owned, deal with the lack of cites) [QUOTE=Grand Forks Mayor Pat Owens has felt the sting of criticism from angry, frustrated residents. She’s frustrated herself because government can’t fix people’s lives. Owens: People’s lives are not normal. They want 'em to be normal today. They want everything back that they had. Nature took us over. Our lives will never be the same.] [/quote] Sadly, I was among those back in May of '97 that thought the gummint should make my life normal. I learned a lot. Sometimes you actually have to roll up the sleeves and clean out the house. You make your life normal on your own mostly. The Feds can help with the major stuff. New housing, better protection from future disasters, etc. But getting your home in order is up to you. It’s something you deal with. It ain’t easy. And I pray those decent folks in NO are able to resume some semblence of a normal life. They are in for a helluva ride. ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/110 "2005-09-03T05:21:24Z")
I want to know why the Guardsmen and soldiers who are refusing to stop their trucks, destroying supplies, and abandoning operations at the sound of scattered shots have not been threatened with, at a minimum, dishonorable discharge and forced to go back and execute their orders. The spectacle of soldiers, the people who sign up for a voluntary military knowing that their job is to fight, running away from danger and thus causing further civilian deaths is one of the lowest points of this tragedy. Sorry folks, but I cannot “support our troops,” at least not the troops who have been reported acting in that fashion. Not this time. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/111 "2005-09-03T05:24:24Z")
> [@lisacurl](#): > > I don’t know how I can live in this country any more. I don’t know how I can ever look at the American flag again and not want to vomit. > > the truth of what happened in the Superdome and Convention Center “shelters” begins to come out: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts\_nm/mayhem\_dc](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050903/ts_nm/mayhem_dc) I hope there’ll be some hard-assed, ugly, Nuremberg-style shit that goes on after this. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/112 "2005-09-03T05:25:37Z")
Shit, [quote=Grand Forks Mayor Pat Owens has felt the sting of criticism from angry, frustrated residents. She’s frustrated herself because government can’t fix people’s lives. Owens: People’s lives are not normal. They want 'em to be normal today. They want everything back that they had. Nature took us over. Our lives will never be the same.] this [/quote] is what was supposed to fill the extra space in the last post. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/113 "2005-09-03T05:36:44Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I hope there’ll be some hard-assed, ugly, Nuremberg-style shit that goes on after this. I knew we could agree on something. There seems to be a fundamental understanding of a society among most of us. Raping children (and you all know my view on that one) isn’t even worthy of an insult or fuck I can’t even express it in words. Well, I might, but I’ll be arrested. What the fuck is wrong with these sick fucks. This is too much for me. I need a break from it. I’m at the point I’d call for nuking the entire city so these few sick fucks can’t spread the misery to the generous cities offering to take them in. I’m out of here for awhile. It’s just too personal. Be gentle. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/114 "2005-09-03T06:06:53Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I disagree with your timeline. Anheuser Busch had donated over 12,000 cases of water by Monday morning. It was shipped, at the company’s expense, to Montgomery, AL for staging, and that wasn’t even the first water available. The supplies were available for almost immediate relief. Also, guess where the nearest Chinooks are. [Fort Rucker, Alabama](http://www-rucker.army.mil/helicopters/chinook.html), the home of all Army helicopter training, and a mere hop from the Gulf Coast. Nearest chinooks are stationed in Fort Rucker Alabama. I don’t know the number of helicopters there. Helicopters are relatively fragile creatures. High winds, hail, and thunderstorms all can keep them on the ground. You have to wait for the storm to completely pass before you can take the helicopters out of the hanger. If there isn’t a hanger to keep them in, or if you believe the hanger may not sufficiently protect the helicopter, it will be ferried to a safer location. Even though Ft Rucker is the home of army aviation, we don’t know the number of chinooks there, if they were deployed elsewhere, or ferried elsewhere for safe keeping. Even if the helicopters were at the base, and available immediately post the storm, the helicopters would have to go to where the supplies are, and load the helicopter. It also does little good to fly a helicopter full of supplies not knowing where to take it to, or whom will be taking care of handing it out. Scouting must be performed to see whom is in the most need of those supplies. Scouting the entire area affected takes considerable time. Then you have to ensure that the local officials on the ground have ample control of the situation to be leaving large amounts of food on the ground (again think Africa and UN food shipments). Like I said, I was trained to expect no help for 5 days after a major event such as this. I once was told something that holds true: The seven P’s Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. This holds true for both the governmental response (which I am not saying is perfect, it’s far from it. I am just arguing that expectations should be reasonable) and for the people who live where the disaster is. It is also said that luck and fortune favor the prepared. I cannot stress enough that you need to be prepared to survive on your own for a good period of time. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/115 "2005-09-03T09:50:34Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Incomplete, **kinoons**. \ any case, we’re not talking about enough water for everybody to take a bath. We’re talking about survival. Let’s say you have pint bottles of water. That’s eight per gallon, and roughly 4 times your 1000 gallon estimate for one Chinook. That’s 4000 gallons times 8 pints per gallon, or 32,000 servings of water. Per helicopter. [http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html](http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html) Average man requires 3 liters of water a day. A liter of water weighs one kilogram (2.2 lbs) If the chinook can sling 26,000 lbs. a complete load of water is 11818 Liters. That’s 3939 daily requirements of water. One chinook can carry enough water for 4000 people for one day. Except the human body requires more water when its hot and humid out. So now you’re down to enough water for maybe 3500, maybe even 3000 people a day without any health affects. Lets also not forget that you cant simply sling 26000 lbs of water, it has to be packaged, so you’re going to loose some there. There were 25,000 people in the superdome. It would take seven or eight fully loaded chinooks to meet just the water demands for just the superdome, and no where else… (Again assuming you can sling a full load of water). And once rescuers show up you have to feed and care for them too, so the numbers go up. Depending where they are flying from, how they are being loaded, where the supplies are coming from, this all takes time. In short, helicopters are not the way to supply large amounts of supplies to any large amount of people. It takes trucks and rail to be truly efficient. > [@Ogre](#): > > Anheuser Busch had donated over 12,000 cases of water by Monday morning. I’m guessing here, but a case of water is 24 twenty ounce bottles? 5760000 ounces, 720000 servings. It takes 100 ounces to meet the minimal three liter recommendation. Anheuser Busch donated about two days worth of water for the superdome, assuming the water went no where else. Not to anywhere in Mississippi, or elsewhere in Louisiana, but just to the Superdome. Was it great of them to donate the water, absolutely. Is it going to make a difference? Well to each person that gets one of those bottles, yes, but in the grand scheme of things it is just a drop in the preverbal bucket. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/116 "2005-09-03T10:33:09Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html](http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/NU/00283.html) > > Average man requires 3 liters of water a day. > > A liter of water weighs one kilogram (2.2 lbs) If the chinook can sling 26,000 lbs. a complete load of water is 11818 Liters. That’s 3939 daily requirements of water. One chinook can carry enough water for 4000 people for one day. > > Except the human body requires more water when its hot and humid out. So now you’re down to enough water for maybe 3500, maybe even 3000 people a day without any health affects. > > Lets also not forget that you cant simply sling 26000 lbs of water, it has to be packaged, so you’re going to loose some there. > > There were 25,000 people in the superdome. It would take seven or eight fully loaded chinooks to meet just the water demands for just the superdome, and no where else… (Again assuming you can sling a full load of water). And once rescuers show up you have to feed and care for them too, so the numbers go up. Depending where they are flying from, how they are being loaded, where the supplies are coming from, this all takes time. > > In short, helicopters are not the way to supply large amounts of supplies to any large amount of people. It takes trucks and rail to be truly efficient. > > I’m guessing here, but a case of water is 24 twenty ounce bottles? 5760000 ounces, 720000 servings. It takes 100 ounces to meet the minimal three liter recommendation. Anheuser Busch donated about two days worth of water for the superdome, assuming the water went no where else. Not to anywhere in Mississippi, or elsewhere in Louisiana, but just to the Superdome. Was it great of them to donate the water, absolutely. Is it going to make a difference? Well to each person that gets one of those bottles, yes, but in the grand scheme of things it is just a drop in the preverbal bucket. …you see, I can’t read this post without shaking my head and going…huh? No water is better than some water? I can just imagine the heads of FEMA right now having this debate using your figures, rationalising things out… "well, it’s only gonna be a drop in the bucket, so we’ll wait a day or so… " is that what your trying to say? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/117 "2005-09-03T10:36:17Z")
It’s going to take a lot of drops in the bucket so I’m very glad that Busch is donating the water. They could have more easily sat on their hands. Busch’s response was better than Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/118 "2005-09-03T10:40:42Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …you see, I can’t read this post without shaking my head and going…huh? > > No water is better than some water? I can just imagine the heads of FEMA right now having this debate using your figures, rationalising things out… "well, it’s only gonna be a drop in the bucket, so we’ll wait a day or so… " is that what your trying to say? Of course any water is better than no water, The point I am making over the entirety of this thread is that helicopters are fast, but they simply cannot provide enough supplies to make a major difference. Trucks and rail can move massive amounts of assistance, but in this case those cannot reasonably be expected to be on scene for several days (I’ve always been taught upto 5 days) I’m not here to defend everything the government is doing, and I’m sure that things should have gone much more smoothly than they have, but I don’t totally fault them for it taking some time to get in the area with assistance. Those who believe we should have had everything there the next day are simply being unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/119 "2005-09-03T10:50:24Z")
> [@kinoons](#): > > Of course any water is better than no water, The point I am making over the entirety of this thread is that helicopters are fast, but they simply cannot provide enough supplies to make a major difference. > > Trucks and rail can move massive amounts of assistance, but in this case those cannot reasonably be expected to be on scene for several days (I’ve always been taught upto 5 days) > > I’m not here to defend everything the government is doing, and I’m sure that things should have gone much more smoothly than they have, but I don’t totally fault them for it taking some time to get in the area with assistance. Those who believe we should have had everything there the next day are simply being unreasonable. …but gosh, again, correct me if I’m wrong, but according to your calculations there was enough water donated to keep the Superdome going for two days. It would take seven to eight Chinooks to deliver that water. I’m sure I saw some Chinooks in the TV coverage, so I’m gonna assume there was some there. This doesn’t look like a drop in the bucket-in fact it looks like a scandal. ---
**Author:** ![kinoons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a698b9/32.png) [@kinoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kinoons)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/120 "2005-09-03T11:11:11Z")
> [@Banquet Bear](#): > > …but gosh, again, correct me if I’m wrong, but according to your calculations there was enough water donated to keep the Superdome going for two days. It would take seven to eight Chinooks to deliver that water. I’m sure I saw some Chinooks in the TV coverage, so I’m gonna assume there was some there. This doesn’t look like a drop in the bucket-in fact it looks like a scandal. That assumes that those seven or eight chinooks are tasked to only take the donated water to the superdome, and screw everyone else. There was, still is, several (tens, if not hundreds) of thousands of miles affected by this hurricane. As I stated I don’t know how many Chinooks are available for use, but I’m willing to bet its not more than 40 to 60 at best. You’re suggesting we commit a full 10-20 percent of our available chinooks to one location. Yes that location is in need, but should it get 10-20 percent of our resources? Resources that can also be used to move sick people (24 litters). Do you suggest we take those 8 chinooks that could get several hundred sick or injured people out of the area to deliver water? Those are the choices that have to be made. And again, this entire thread is about the government response in general. People have been asking why it is taking so long to get relief to the region and I’m trying to explain why it takes so long, and why helicopters are not a good substitute for trucks and trains. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747.md?page=7)