# I pit the substandard governmental response to the situation in New Orleans. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 2, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747 "2005-09-02T16:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/161 "2005-09-03T19:21:03Z")
> [@Dewey](#): > > But this whole thing makes one wonder why the fuck our tax dollars have been funding FEMA all these years if such an immensely destructive disaster is considered principally a state and local matter. I don’t think we’re in any substantial disagreement here. I’m not particularly familiar with the structure of your relevant government agencies here, so keep that in mind when reading my comments. I was under the impression that FEMA was primarily intended as a means of delivering adequate funding to allow a hard-hit locale to rebuild and recover after the fact, but that emergency response during the actual crisis was a more local thing. Perhaps I’m mistaken. And I agree that there’s been a complete failure to simply _take_ the required resources and put them to use. Richest nation in the world, you are. The resources are there. Waltz into nearby bottling plants and tell them you want all the bottled water they have, now, and turn the bottling machines on 24/7 until further notice. Waltz into the trucking company and tell them to get some trucks over to the bottling plant post haste. Etc. Adequate contingency planning would have had everyone put on notice before the storm made landfall that they might be required to contribute their services, and to be ready in case they were. What really, really blows my mind, though, is the failure to get Guardsmen in place soon enough to prevent the complete collapse of social order. _The single greatest responsibility_ of government, and they completely blew it. This is the really, truly unforgiveable aspect of the affair in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/162 "2005-09-03T20:27:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > There’s ENOUGH blame to go around. I repeat: ENOUGH BLAME. > > The Mayor is at fault. > > The head of FEMA is at fault. > > The President is at fault. > > Shiiiit! It’s like people are either blaming the prez or they blaming the mayor…like there’s no such thing as multiple culprits or levels of accountibility. Like we have to take sides with SOMEONE to the villification the OTHER. > > The GOVERNMENT fucked up. At all levels and divisions. Can we at least come to an agreement over this? Yes. I absolutely agree with this. If my post was taken as an effort to say that the federal response was flawless, believe me, that’s not my point at all. I do think that those are saying, “Hey, it’s not brain surgery!” are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems. My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, “It’s so easy, and they fucked it up!” Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it’s not easy. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/163 "2005-09-03T20:58:52Z")
I’m withholding blame until the definitive Congressional investigations and Michael Moore documentary have been released. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/164 "2005-09-03T21:17:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I do think that those are saying, “Hey, it’s not brain surgery!” are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems. > > My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, “It’s so easy, and they fucked it up!” > > Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it’s not easy. Anybody who thinks coordinating more than two people, much less agencies, at a time is _easy_ must be either deluded or woefully inexperienced, IMO. I don’t think the complexity of the problem was ever the issue. ‘Teaching the elephant to dance’ doesn’t just apply to businesses. Any bureaucracy will move at glacial pace if given half a chance. The problem is that disaster preparedness was made an overriding national priority years ago. A new federal department was created specifically to streamline and coordinate efforts to identify vulnerabilities and coordinate resources throughout all levels of government–and beyond–in response to catastrophes. I don’t think people are underestimating the horrendous complexities involved; they’re just pissed as hell and appalled that the systems created turned out to be so blatantly, lethally inadequate. It’s impossible not to compare disaster response systems to the aftermath of 9/11. Effective contingencies should have been in place–and weren’t. Flubs, errors and miscommunications would be expected. Those happen even without disasters. The nearly complete lack of effective coordination is a helluva lot more serious. New Orleans was the test case for the Bush administration’s lean, mean and streamlined govermental apparatus to handle domestic disasters. It failed, spectacularly. Common sense prevention and coordination weren’t better after all that expense, brouhaha and trumpeted public assurances. If anything, they were more inept. Politics, and government for that matter, are mental constructs based on common belief. I believe the Bush administration failed, in the worst possible way, to provide the basic planning, coordination and emergency response it taxed citizens to create and that they believed existed in some vestigally improved form. ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/165 "2005-09-03T22:21:23Z")
> [@TVeblen](#): > > New Orleans was the test case for the Bush administration’s lean, mean and streamlined govermental apparatus to handle domestic disasters. It failed, spectacularly. Common sense prevention and coordination weren’t better after all that expense, brouhaha and trumpeted public assurances. If anything, they were more inept. Strong words, but still not strong enough to describe the ineptness of stuff like this: [Just to give you a sense of just how badly FEMA has f\*cked up.](http://securingamerica.com/ccn/node/357) > [@](#): > > On Wednesday morning a group of approximately 1,000 citizens pulling 500 boats left the Acadiana Mall in Lafayette in the early morning and headed to New Orleans with a police escort from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Department. The flotillia of trucks pulling boats stretched over FIVE miles. This citizen rescue group was organized by La. State Senator, Nick Gautreaux from Vermilion Parish. The group was comprised of experienced boaters, licensed fishermen and hunters, people who have spent their entire adult life and teenage years on the waterways of Louisiana. > > …The DWF agent did not want to hear this and ordered them home – ALL FIVE HUNDRED BOATS. > > …However, two friends were pulling a smaller 15ft alumaweld with a 25 hp. The DWF agents let them through to proceed to the rescue operation launch site. > > …They were kept there for approximately 3 hours. During that time they observed a large number of DWF agents doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because FEMA would not let them HELP! After three hours had passed they were told that they were not needed and should go home. They complied with the DWF’s orders and turned around and went home to Lafayette. > > Watching CNN later that night, there was a telephone interview with a Nurse trapped in Charity Hospital in New Orleans. She said that there were over 1,000 people trapped inside of the hospital and that the doctors and nurses had zero medical supplies, no diesel to run the generators and that only three people had been rescued from the hospital since the Hurricane hit! > > I can’t come up with one logical reason why the DWF sent this large group of 500 boats/1000 men home when we surely could have rescued most, if not all, of the people trapped in Charity Hospital. Further, we had the means to immediately transport these people to hospitals in Southwest Louisiana. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/166 "2005-09-03T22:30:43Z")
The more I hear these stories, the more I start believing that some authorities actually _wanted_ people to die. It’s starting to look like the thugs and rapists aren’t the only bad apples. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/167 "2005-09-03T22:45:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The more I hear these stories, the more I start believing that some authorities actually _wanted_ people to die. Why would “some authorities” \*\*want \*\* people to die? Seriously, what do you think the motivation would be for something like that? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/168 "2005-09-03T22:52:56Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Why would “some authorities” \*\*want \*\* people to die? Seriously, what do you think the motivation would be for something like that? What’s your explanation for why someone would turn away FIVE MILES of skilled help? I can’t think of an innocent explanation. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/169 "2005-09-03T22:54:09Z")
Rather than digging for motives, **Updike** , how about you just analyze the above situation for what it is? What about it says _anything_ to you other than “gross, insupportable incompetence,” or “lax and uncaring?” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/170 "2005-09-03T22:54:55Z")
[Scales fall from Landrieu’s eyes:](http://www.newschannel6.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=8695) > [@](#): > > U.S. Senator Mary Landrieu, D-La. Sep 3, 2005 > “I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims – far more efficiently than buses – FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency. > > “But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed **a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity** ; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/171 "2005-09-03T22:56:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The GOVERNMENT fucked up. At all levels and divisions. Can we at least come to an agreement over this? Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/172 "2005-09-03T23:12:39Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > What’s your explanation for why someone would turn away FIVE MILES of skilled help? I can’t think of an innocent explanation. > > Can you? Look, the people who are most immediately responsible are Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco. And then, yes, President Bush. Why would any of them want people to die? It doesn’t make any sense. Your accusations are vile. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/173 "2005-09-03T23:23:08Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Your accusations are vile. I’ll save the word vile for folks like those turning away trained help leaving people to die, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/174 "2005-09-03T23:24:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. > > I absolutely agree with this. > > If my post was taken as an effort to say that the federal response was flawless, believe me, that’s not my point at all. > > I do think that those are saying, “Hey, it’s not brain surgery!” are off base. It IS highly complicated. Still, the fact is we hire people to those positions expecting them to solve highly complicated problems. > > My ire above was raised becase there seemed to be a sense of, “It’s so easy, and they fucked it up!” > > Yes, they fucked it up. But no, it’s not easy. Since I am the one who made the it’s not brain surgery comment [over here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333139) let me answer. The big picture is easy. You have X number of people to move / shelter. They need food, water, and a place to shit. You need to provide security for them. The hard part comes next. You have to take these simple items and turn it into a functional operational plan. This is the hard part. There are 6 jillion details that need attention. The reason I made the not brain surgery comment is not becasue only 5.99 jillion of those very important details got skipped, but rather because the simple easy things that anyone who has 3 functional brain cells would have thought of, wern’t. It’s not a case of they did not have quite enough water at the Superdome becasue they got more people then they expected. They didn’t have any on hand. If it was just details that got overlooked, I would not be posting, because I agree that it is highly complex dealing with the details. I am posting because it appears that the planning never got to the details stage, the mayor and gov just thought that everything would be OK. Also FEMA is not looking too good based on the last couple of links in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/175 "2005-09-03T23:25:28Z")
Shameful. Every fucking bit of this, at all levels, is utterly shameful and downright criminal. That jackass Bush is painfully incompetent to run this country and thousands of people are dying because of it. FEMA and DHS are HIS to oversee and command. The top people at those agencies are HIS appointees. The Mayor and Governor should have done more, absolutely. But Bush COULD have done more and fucking DIDN’T! He posed for photo ops, went on morning talk shows with his nasty smirk and gave us all the same fucking, condescending lip service he’s given us for 5 fucking years. And now I learn the true ramifications if his self-serving fly-by – _even more_ people died! Why? Because “[All aircraft were grounded for two hours during Bush’s fly-by over the area, halting the evacuation at the hospital until the next day.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=332842)” (Post #7) How many people probably passed out from hunger and died of starvation and thirst or drowned in their attics during those precious hours wasted with no aerial rescue so that that egomaniac could look out from his ivory tower? I fucking HATE that man. HATE! ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/176 "2005-09-03T23:27:44Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I’ll save the word vile for folks like those turning away trained help leaving people to die, for example. Do you include, as vile, those who have shot at rescuers in your example? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/177 "2005-09-03T23:30:36Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > The reason I made the not brain surgery comment is not becasue only 5.99 jillion of those very important details got skipped Actually I did some editiing here, and met to write that only 5.99 jillion of those details got handled, but it reads pretty good the way it came out. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/178 "2005-09-03T23:33:16Z")
I said for an example. Specific answer - depends - shooting to harm? yes. Shooting as an attempt to signal for help? not so much. you gonna agree that turning AWAY help at that time leaving people to die is vile? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/179 "2005-09-03T23:42:36Z")
> [@wring](#): > > I said for an example. Specific answer - depends - shooting to harm? yes. Shooting as an attempt to signal for help? not so much. > you gonna agree that turning AWAY help at that time leaving people to die is vile? I’m still waiting for **monstro** or anyone else to provide evidence that the authorities, at any level, WANTED people to die. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Highwayman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Highwayman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Highwayman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747/180 "2005-09-03T23:44:45Z")
Yes, let’s agree that the government fucked up. But where does the buck stop? Who is the highest power in the land in dealing with these things? Who ultimately bears responsibility for the multiple federal fuck-ups? The best republican red-herring (and this one is used over and over again) is what’ would \ have done? “What would Gore have done on 9/11?” is an example. Now the best defense that we hear is “What would Kerry have done in the New Orleans situation?” The response might be better or worse, I would argue it would be better but that would be another post. **NEWSFLASH ASSHOLES! GEORGE BUSH IS PRESIDENT! THE BUCK STOPS WITH HIM.** If everything goes well for the country, like the stock market goes up or the jobs report is good, Georgie points to his tax cuts and claims responsibility. When things go good, the millions of people really responsible are never cheered and dipshit takes responsibility. _BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN THINGS GO WRONG_? Then it’s everyone else’s fault but his. Don’t you guys get tired of defending this chickenshit chickenhawk? Don’t you find your red herrings a lame arguing point? It’s akin to “if a brick dropped from the sky and hit you on the head…” They are just hypos and not real facts that we intelligent people are supposed to argue from. I mean, your man is president. He bears the ultimate responsibility whether things go right or not. So do something our president won’t and **MAN THE FUCK UP**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-substandard-governmental-response-to-the-situation-in-new-orleans/319747.md?page=10)