# I Pit the Tax "Rebate" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 27, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146 "2008-01-27T01:35:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/161 "2008-01-29T21:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Apparently you are not familiar with the new Christianity now widely practiced in America (and by some [self-professed Chrisitians on the SDMB](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=449296&highlight=jesus)). I call it Christianity Lite, because they claim they no longer have to abide by any of Jesus’s commandments, all they have to do is be a nice person and love nice people. [/QUOTE] Way off topic, but would you consider opening another thread with something resembling specifics of what you’re talking about? I’ve seen this approach taken by people who equate their own opinions to Jesus’s commandments, and by people who wouldn’t know hyperbole if it bit them on the nose. I’ve also seen it used as a valid point against people who have a vague, nebulous idea of what Jesus stood for. I’d welcome a chance to respond, but first I’d like to know what the heck it is that I’m answering. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/162 "2008-01-29T21:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] You could consider the difference between what you get from a regular fund and a “socially responsible” fund as a charitable donation. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Do you think I could claim this on my tax return? What is the socially responsible fund outperforms? Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2008, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/163 "2008-02-08T05:52:31Z")
Well, it’s passed both houses, and from my read of the legislation, it is not a “prebate”, it is a flat-out giveaway. I also know I will receive absolutely $0 back. Despite paying more than $40k (actually, it might be more than $50k…fuck…I’m still not sure) in Federal taxes alone this last year. That sounds fair. :dubious: Oh well, I’d better not rant about it, or there will be the usual pile-on. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/164 "2008-02-09T03:59:43Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] Well, it’s passed both houses, and from my read of the legislation, it is not a “prebate”, it is a flat-out giveaway. I also know I will receive absolutely $0 back. Despite paying more than $40k (actually, it might be more than $50k…fuck…I’m still not sure) in Federal taxes alone this last year. That sounds fair. :dubious: Oh well, I’d better not rant about it, or there will be the usual pile-on. [/QUOTE] Just wait until Barack/Hillary get into office. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/165 "2008-02-09T04:27:27Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Just wait until Barack/Hillary get into office. [/QUOTE] Yep, they’re going to raise taxes to pay for all the deficits the Dine ‘n’ Dash Republicans left behind. Someday maybe you will grow up and take responsibility for paying your bills as you incur them, instead of leaving the check on the table for your kids to pick up. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/166 "2008-02-09T05:19:59Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Someday maybe you will grow up and take responsibility for paying your bills as you incur them, instead of leaving the check on the table for your kids to pick up. [/QUOTE] You mean like the left pays for their precious entitlement programs, like Social Security? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/167 "2008-02-09T06:30:07Z")
Well, gee, **Carol** , when you got roving packs of oldsters rummaging through the dumpsters for food, it can really bring down property values. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/168 "2008-02-09T07:04:52Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Where is the money for those annual checks supposed to come from? [/QUOTE] Maybe China or Japan? Have we hit up Mozambique for a payday loan? We need a new supply of lenders. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/169 "2008-02-09T07:47:38Z")
[QUOTE=lieu] They’ve a cutoff because they’re afraid those above it wouldn’t spend the money but would instead invest it wisely? A situation arising from fiscal irresponsibility is to combatted by keeping it out of the hands of the fiscally responsible? Fucking brilliant. [/QUOTE] This is exactly what the administration is doing. Lower income people are more likely to spend it; although, I don’t think they will get much. It’s a stupid idea. Bush can keep my money and invest it in my kid’s school, maybe a grant for science education enrichment. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/170 "2008-02-09T13:19:17Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] You mean like the left pays for their precious entitlement programs, like Social Security? [/QUOTE] Well, yeah. Now that you mention it, we are going to eliminate the $97k cap on FICA witholding to fix that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/171 "2008-02-09T15:09:39Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Well, yeah. Now that you mention it, we are going to eliminate the $97k cap on FICA witholding to fix that as well. [/QUOTE] The FICA cap has an automatic escalation built into it already, and is no longer $97,000 but is $102,000. Even Wikipedia has it: [Federal Insurance Contributions Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FICA) [Social Security Wage Base - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Wage_Base) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/172 "2008-02-09T18:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] The FICA cap has an automatic escalation built into it already, and is no longer $97,000 but is $102,000. Even Wikipedia has it: [Federal Insurance Contributions Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FICA) [Social Security Wage Base - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Wage_Base) [/QUOTE] Do away with it altogether. Everybody pays the same rate. Seems fair to me. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/173 "2008-02-09T18:49:04Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] You mean like the left pays for their precious entitlement programs, like Social Security? [/QUOTE] [Actually . . .](http://www.newamerica.net/publications/articles/2008/america_still_works_6606) > [@](#): > > In comparison with the problem of healthcare cost inflation, the alleged crisis of social security is puny. Claims of a “crisis” revolve around two dates: 2017, when the social security surplus runs out and the programme becomes a pure pay-as-you-go system based on annual payroll taxation; and 2041, when payroll tax revenues fall short of expenditures. Even in 2041, social security will be able to pay most of its obligations. The crisis, then, is nothing more than the fact that taxes will have to be raised or benefits cut before 2041 in order to supplement a mostly sound system. (Great confusion is spread by the phrase “unfunded liabilities.” The only programmes with “unfunded liabilities” are those, like social security, paid for by dedicated taxes, in this case a payroll tax. This permits calculations of future divergences between dedicated tax revenues and expenditures. The Pentagon budget is paid from general tax, so the concept is inapplicable.) > > The use of dates like 2017 and 2041, moreover, gives a specious precision to claims that in fact are extremely dubious. This is underlined by the fact that the US government regularly revises the date of the alleged social security apocalypse, as it reconsiders its assumptions. The “intermediate” calculations on which current estimates are based are almost certainly unrealistic. They assume a low rate of productivity growth in the US over the next half century of 1.7 per cent. This is only slightly higher than the average of 1.5 per cent in the long period of low productivity growth from 1973 to 1995. But from 1996 to 2006, US productivity growth boomed at an annual rate of between 2 and 3 per cent in most years. Productivity growth slowed after 2004, but surged ahead in the last quarter at 6.3 per cent. Nobody knows whether the resumption of high productivity growth in the last decade was a blip or the beginning of a new pattern. The point is that if US productivity grows at a rate near the historic average of 1945-2008, the picture for the solvency of social security is much brighter. (This is not the place for a full discussion of economic prospects, but it is worth noting that US industrial output rose nearly 35 per cent in the past ten years, faster than any other G7 country.) > > Moreover, what the doomsayers neglect to tell the public is that if the cap on the amount of income subject to payroll taxation were lifted, the result would be such a flood of money from high earners that the problems of social security would be solved forever. And even if payroll taxes were raised on all workers, as a result of productivity growth the average earner in 2050 may well have wages that in real terms are at least 60 per cent higher than today’s. As a share of my income, I pay far higher taxes than my great-grandfather, but I am much better off because less of a lot is greater than more of a little. > > It is possible, and in my opinion likely, that in the future congress will choose to infuse general revenues into the social security system, as an alternative to raising payroll taxes on all workers. If that is the case, then the only question is whether social security is affordable. The answer is clearly yes. The share of government at all levels as a percentage of GDP is lower than that in almost all other industrial democracies. In the US, government expenditure at all levels – federal, state and local – as a share of GDP hovers just above 30 per cent (despite spending a staggering $626bn on military-related costs in 2007, over 22 per cent of the federal budget). By comparison, the EU-25 average was 47 per cent in 2005. An additional 2 per cent of GDP can be added to social security over the next half century without altering America’s position as one of the least statist economies in the world. > > Indeed, the baby boom generation caused an increase in US government expenditures once before – when they were children. In the 25 years from 1950 to 1975, expenditures on public education (in the US, a local and state responsibility) rose from 2.5 per cent to 5.3 per cent. What counts is not the ratio of workers to retirees – which will have gone from 18 to 1 in 1950 to slightly more than 2 to 1 in 2050 – but the dependent-to-worker ratio, with dependents defined as children under 20 and retirees over 65. The dependent to worker ratio will be less in 2050 – 80 to 100 – than it was in the 1960s, when there were 90 dependents to 100 workers because fewer women worked and there was a large cohort of baby boomer children. What’s more, American workers in 2050 will be far more productive than they were in the 1950s. No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/174 "2008-02-10T00:46:04Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Do away with it altogether. Everybody pays the same rate. Seems fair to me. [/QUOTE] I’d actually be supportive of FICA to infinity if Social Security and Disability benefits were exempt from Federal and State taxes **regardless** of any other supplemental income - you know, for the people who **did the right thing** and put in those 60-hour weeks for decades, and didn’t blow their money on shiny things, to save for retirement. Typically, when I suggest that to folks advocating FICA to infinity they suddenly come up with all sorts of “reasons”, which if you reduce them long enough on a low heat essentially boil down to “fuck you yuppie scum, for making more money than me.” But maybe someday there’ll be hope. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/175 "2008-02-10T00:54:25Z")
Well, if you’re saying that everyone who works hard, for long hours is equally deserving of comfortable retirement, regardless of how well paid they were, I tend to agree. I just don’t think that’s quite what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/176 "2008-02-10T01:25:40Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Do away with it altogether. Everybody pays the same rate. Seems fair to me. [/QUOTE] Excuse me, but what is “fair” about taking money from one person to give it to another? ---
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/177 "2008-02-10T07:09:23Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Excuse me, but what is “fair” about taking money from one person to give it to another? [/QUOTE] You have already been told that people who don’t pay income taxes do still pay taxes, you for some reason just don’t want to believe that. When I was younger and much poorer I was paying rent, which meant that i was paying someone else’s property taxes and mortgage without being able to build any equity. I was paying more in rent than a mortgage payment for the same property would be. There are fees for nearly everything, either acknowledged up front or hidden. Gasoline taxes figure into prices for everything we buy. FICA and Medicare taxes are taken out of every dollar earned, up to the cap. I might also add that the very states that swing Republican are the ones that get $2.00 back from the federal government for every $1.00 they pay in, while the states with larger populations that tend to vote Democratic get less than $1.00 back Social Security would be in a lot better shape by now if it weren’t being used as a slush fund, to disguise actual budget deficits. The program does pay more to those who paid more into it, so it isn’t a complete transfer, but it is supposed to be a safety net sort of thing, and those of us with any sense don’t expect it to be our sole source of income in retirement. It is part of the price we pay for living in a fairly civilized society. Those of us who are either paying down debt or putting the rebate in the bank will still be helping a little bit, because that money doesn’t just sit in the bank, you know. Banks have to keep some cash in reserve, but the more they have the more they can lend. That’s a good thing IMHO as I’d say a sudden tightening of credit that was previously too loose has as much to do with the current situation as anything else except the war, which is still the elephant in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/178 "2008-02-10T12:57:28Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Excuse me, but what is “fair” about taking money from one person to give it to another? [/QUOTE] I feel the same way about Bush’s tax cuts for the rich, while the deficit grows ever larger.. You are stealing from your children. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/179 "2008-02-10T21:45:36Z")
I know this thread has gone off onto other tangents, but I’m reluctant to open (yet) another thread on this same topic, so I’ll just ask my question here: I understand that this is a “rebate” against one’s presumed refund of monies withheld in 2008 (which would be received in 2009). Qualification is based on 2007 income, right? And you have to file a 2007 form 1040 (or 1040a) return to get it, correct? And I read that if the refund that you are owed in 2009 is _less than_ the $600, $1200, or in our case $1800 (married, 2 kids, moderate income) they’re giving us _now_, they’ll just forgive the difference. I know the typical household refund is around $2200 or so. Well, what’s to prevent people from filing new W4 forms with their employers right now and adjusting their withholding for 2008 (reducing the excess that is currently being withheld) so that they’ll get back more like $100 in 2009? And they won’t owe the difference. Hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2008, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146/180 "2008-02-10T22:26:14Z")
[QUOTE=Carol Stream] Excuse me, but what is “fair” about taking money from one person to give it to another? [/QUOTE] It’s called taxation. Every government does it, is some form or other, regardless of system or ideology. Nearly everybody, whether they like paying or not, whether they like the existing tax system or not, accepts that a government has the legitimate authority to levy taxes. Are you saying you’re right and the whole world is wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-tax-rebate/435146.md?page=10)