# I pit the woman who said: "Why do you have a Machine Gun? This isn't Israel!" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 23, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636 "2003-12-23T13:56:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/61 "2003-12-24T14:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Mass shootings reported in the media here in Europe (and I’d imagine in NZ and OZ as well) tend to happen in the US in 90% of all cases, if I were to hazard a guess. In countries where gun ownership is restricted to the police, the army, and people who shoot for fun at a range, a snapping person killing a dozen coworkers is “an American kind of thing”, for better or worse. Here in the United States the right to bare arms is our constitutional right. Most I would say have guns because they hunt, or want to defend their homes if a crazy nutcase comes calling in the wee hours of the night. Those crazies who walking to a McDonalds and mow down the lot are mentally deranged in some form or another. I would never give up my right to bare arms because of isolated incidents here in America. In parts of Europe, or anywhere for that matter where people can not own a gun, if this is all they have ever known than I see how one could say Americans are “gun happy” and our streets are full of crime. However, for those who actually believe that, I’m here to tell you that is simply not the case. You get fucked up people all over the world…not just in America. Back to what I originally posted…the woman was calling the cop a facist…not Israel. Just to clear that up…Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/62 "2003-12-24T14:58:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > Here in the United States the right to **bare arms** is our constitutional right. Most I would say have guns because they hunt, or want to defend their homes if a crazy nutcase comes calling in the wee hours of the night. … > I would never give up my right to **bare arms** because of isolated incidents here in America. Can’t resist… I think it was an issue of MAD (my paraphrase as I remember it): > [@](#): > > While writing the constitution, the Founding Fathers ran in to some wording problems: > “Let’s write it as ‘the right to sleeveless shirts’” > “No, tha’t sounds awful! We will call it ‘the right to bare arms’” Seeing it twice in the same post just threw me off the edge 😃 (yeah, **Phlosphr** , I know sppeling misteaks heppen. I’m not laughing **at** you. But it made me laugh, nonetheless…) Dani ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/63 "2003-12-24T15:14:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* The terror warnings are bullshit. There isn’t any danger. > \*\* Hello, Fate? Pay no attention to this statement. It’s just **Diogenes** having a brain fart. I think all security personnel carrying actual machine guns should also be obliged to wear fedoras and pin-striped suits. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/64 "2003-12-24T15:26:15Z")
**Phlosphr** , it’s not so much that Europeans tend to think that all Americans are gun-happy cowboys (though I’m sure some of the lesser enlightened ones think exactly that), but that, like I said, people snapping and shooting a dozen people seems to happen more in America. Of course, this has several reasons: for one thing, the US is very big compared to most European nations. That, coupled with media exposure, might lead people to think that it’s an “American” thing. I know they’re exceptions, and I agree that the perpetrators are wackjobs. Hell, I don’t even know if it happens more in the US on a relative scale. Just an impression a lot of people have. Furthermore, let’s not turn this into a gun debate. You can arm your bears all you want. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/65 "2003-12-24T15:36:10Z")
You are right **Coldfire** - don’t want to get too far off the OP. Furthermore, we’ll keep all our wild animals heavily armed! 😉 🙂 _ **BEAR ARMS!** _, ok, ok…I’ll take my weekly flogging for my terrible grammar and spelling…if I have students who correct me, I can take it from a virtual english teacher as well. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/66 "2003-12-24T15:40:53Z")
Are we having another discussion abotu this? I thought we settled the issue of arming bears already? 😃 Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/67 "2003-12-24T15:42:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Wasn’t Lincoln a Democrat by today’s political standards? If you asociate past political parties with what we have today (basically conservative/liberal), you’ll find that party names and ideologies don’t always match the current system we have. Republicans during Lincoln’s time were the “bleeding-heart liberals” as today’s Democrats, and vice-versa. [nitpick] [but important] Political parties raise money, support candidates, and issue pieces of paper, posters, hats, and did I mention money? An _ideology_ is something that comes from, is expressed from within, or is emulated by a human being. Even then, you must judge that human by his or her actions. You should never assume a political party guarantees anything. That makes you a true believer. If so, say “BAA!” Recently, for example, Hillary Clinton – wholly unnoticed – went right of Bush on the war. Wait until you see how “significant” this was four, or so, years from now. That is, unless the political winds shift. Then it will be hard to find any mention of it anywhere. She was careful not to say it too many times, or too loudly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/68 "2003-12-24T16:35:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I agree with the lady. Machine guns are overkill. We aren’t “at war” domestically. The terror warnings are bullshit. There isn’t any danger. > > The fascists took over in January, 2001. \*\* You’re so obviously wrong, if Central Park had been choc-full of overtly armed police on the morning of 9/11 then it would never have,… er no, hang on a minute, what was the connection again? Can someone explain? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/69 "2003-12-24T17:34:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by friedo \* > \*\*None of the Muslims I know were sent to Guantanamo. There’s quite a large population of them around here. We’re talking about fewer than a thousand people, almost all of them captured oversees fighting against our forces, as compared to six million Muslims living free in the United States. > > I think accusations of fascism are pretty far-fetched. \*\* I didn’t say that _all_ Muslims got sent to Gitmo, I said that _only_ Muslims got sent to Gitmo. I don’t know that fascism is that far off. Fascism is when fealty to an individual leader is defined as identical to fealty to the state. This administration has gone to great pains to characterize patriotism and loyalty to America as being synonomous with slavish devotion to GWB. It is _fascistic_ at least if not classically fascist…yet. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/70 "2003-12-24T18:04:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Akatsukami \* > \*\*Which is why you’ve been arrested in the middle of the night, sent to a concentration camp, gassed, and cremated. \*\* Interesting working definition of fascism you have there. I didn’t realize that death camps were popular in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/71 "2003-12-24T18:09:25Z")
Well, we look forward to your expanding on your Cult of the Leader thesis. Once you get beyond condemning the practice in some quarters of equating support for the Administration’s policies with support for America, you begin sounding, well, silly. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/72 "2003-12-24T18:16:46Z")
I glad this is in the pit, but seriously **Phlosphr** , you must be aware of the amount of violent crimes / murder from gunshots per capita in the US, as compared to other ‘western’ nations. Wheather this a result of your gun laws or not is another debate, that’s been going on _ad nauseum_ on these boards. However, I would argue that if fewer guns float around, legal or illegal, then fewer people will get killed by guns. If there were no guns at all, I’m sure people would be killing each other with arrows, spears, swords, knives, blunt sticks or wet paper towels. However, a deranged teen climbing the bell tower and having a shooting gallery killling all who picked on him in junior high, would have a hard time acheiving that with a blunt stick. Or even bow+arrow. You see, I think that when someone, for whatever reason, snaps, then whatever is handy, will be used. Guy comes home to find wifey in bed with his best friend. In my country, some, maybe all three, are likely to end up in the emergency room, badly bruised and maybe some broken bones. In a country were handguns are more available, if the guy walks in, he just might use the gun, instead of beating the other guy over the head. This is why I’m in favor of gun controll, if not banning of guns. As for the guys with SMGs. I would _not_ feel safer. In fact, I would feel more scared. If I go through an airport, and it’s just the normal security, I feel safe getting on a plane. If someone called out military or SWAT guys, toting SMGs, I would feel scared, basically because I figure there is a reason. And those guys won’t do a hell of a lot of good if someone decides to take out my plane with a RPG from outside the airport. In general, I think that adding guys with SMGs on street corners adds a sense of… insecurity in general. It creates an atmosphere of tension and higher anxiety. It also means that the administration ( not the US, just as a general observation) can create a feeling of insecurity where laws are created that infringe on basic freedoms. Rememeber - perception is reality, and if the general feel is that of danger, ordinary law abiding citizens tend to let those in charge take meassures, that they wouldn’t accept if they felt perfectly safe. Since I’m one of those law abiding citizens, I want to perceive a police officer as a friend, someone to turn to, when in trouble, someone who helps me. I don’t want to see him or her in kevlar and with a SMG. As demonstrated in this thread, a lot of people say [paraphrasing] “You don’t fuck around with a guy having that in his hands.” I think that’s a problem. Quite a serious problem, as they are there “to serve and protect”, not project force. And frankly, seeing what Bin-Laden et. al. have been up to, so far, I doubt a guy with a SMG would make any difference either way. What’s he gonna do? Try to shoot down the 737 heading for the Chrysler building? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/73 "2003-12-24T18:24:04Z")
How about putting out hits on the spouses of whistle blowers? How about policies which allow US citizens to be arrested and held indefinitely without charges, without trial, without access to legal counsel and without communication with family? How about “Free Speech Zones?” How about stealing elections? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/74 "2003-12-24T18:38:57Z")
You started with the Cult of the Leader hypothesis. I’m curious what evidence you have to support that one first. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/75 "2003-12-24T19:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\*You started with the Cult of the Leader hypothesis. I’m curious what evidence you have to support that one first. \*\* I think you may have wandered into the wrong thread. Cults are three doors down and on the left. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/76 "2003-12-24T21:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > > I imagine it’s somewhat similar to how I feel when there’s some horrific mass-shooting in, say, New Zealand where one lunatic massacres a couple dozen people and all the folks on the TV say things like “Well, I’d expect something like that to happen in America but not here…” A sort of hurt befuddlement - you don’t really think the whole country is like that, do you? - followed by the realization that provincialism is everywhere. > > While I agree that statements like that aren’t the nicest thing to say about your country, can’t you at least understand the sentiment behind it, though? > > Mass shootings reported in the media here in Europe (and I’d imagine in NZ and OZ as well) tend to happen in the US in 90% of all cases, if I were to hazard a guess. In countries where gun ownership is restricted to the police, the army, and people who shoot for fun at a range, a snapping person killing a dozen coworkers is “an American kind of thing”, for better or worse. Well, I understand the sentiment. It’s like when there’s a riot during some sporting event and we say “Gee, we expect that kind of behavior from Europe, not here”. Or rioting farmers is something we expect to hear about from France, or carbombs from Ireland or the Basque region, or… well, you get the idea. I’m not denying that the US probably does exceed Europe in gun violence - excepting open war zones like Sarajevo was for awhile. For a variety of complicated reasons, some obvious and some not, suicide bombers are more common in Isreal than, say, Cincinnati, Ohio or Aukland, New Zealand, or Paris, France. However, if that’s the _sole_ picture one has of Isreal that is, in fact, inaccurate and quite sad. Blood does not flow continually on every street in every town every day in Isreal. Nor do people freak out and go on a murder rampage every day in the US. Nor does every sporting event in Europe end in a riot and people trampled to death. It also sounds to me like an attitude I personally this is a bit of a fantasy, the “it can’t happen in THIS neighborhood” belief. Usually because the person thinks theirs is a “nice” nieghborhood, or something else, that somehow magically keeps the bad guys away. Well, with modern transportation so easily available to all (including bad guys) distance is no longer much of a buffer. Refusing to believe a particular Bad Thing can happen where you live - because that’s a problem “over there”, not “here” - can blind you to developing problems in your own backyard. Specifically, if your country largely bans firearms, yet you have some psycho obtain one and go on a rampage then clearing simply passing a law to remove one type of weapon from the populace is not the final solution to the problem - you clearly have to do something about dangerous people who are smart enough to obtain weapons illegally. All of which is getting off the track of the OP - or is it? Fact is, foreign terorists HAVE struck US soil, and rather recently. So the threat IS real. To say "no, we’re not like _that place_ which is _way over there_ is a form of denial that can result in severe injury or death. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Long\_Road](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@The\_Long\_Road](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Long_Road)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/77 "2003-12-24T22:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\ ***Phlosphr** , it’s not so much that Europeans tend to think that all Americans are gun-happy cowboys (though I’m sure some of the lesser enlightened ones think exactly that), but that, like I said, people snapping and shooting a dozen people seems to happen more in America. Of course, this has several reasons: for one thing, the US is very big compared to most European nations. That, coupled with media exposure, might lead people to think that it’s an “American” thing. I know they’re exceptions, and I agree that the perpetrators are wackjobs. Hell, I don’t even know if it happens more in the US on a relative scale. Just an impression a lot of people have. > > Furthermore, let’s not turn this into a gun debate. You can arm your bears all you want. 🙂 \*\* Coldfire, Do you know why the movie _28 days later_ was set in England? Because if that happened in the United States, we would have shot the rage infected peopled dead making the movie last about 10 minutes. People get rage virus, I go out with my gun and shoot them, movie ends. America is safe from rage infected zombies because we have guns while Europe will get wiped out! When zombies are beating at your door, do not come posting here about how you wish you had a gun! ---
**Author:** ![45\_70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/5f9b8f/32.png) [@45\_70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/45_70)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/78 "2003-12-24T22:19:23Z")
The police offecer could have replied that no this wasn’t Israel, this was the United States. She has the right to yell and scream all she wants. The officer in turn does not have the right to shoot the silly lady where she stands. Isn’t so in some parts of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/79 "2003-12-24T22:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by js\_africanus \* > \*\*I think you may have wandered into the wrong thread. Cults are three doors down and on the left. \*\* And you will find the Not Paying Attention Clinic down the corridor and out the window. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636/80 "2003-12-24T22:57:30Z")
Dare I ask what whistle-blower’s spouse was targetted for assassination, or is that just smoke-blowing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-woman-who-said-why-do-you-have-a-machine-gun-this-isnt-israel/220636.md?page=5)