# I Pit the Work Ethic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545 "2009-05-06T15:46:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/1 "2009-05-06T15:46:06Z")
Based on another thread I started recently - which has led to angry conflict with some of the more “personal responsibility” oriented Dopers - I thought I might try mounting an attack on one of our holier institutions: WORK. [Digging Your Own Grave (essay)](http://homepage.mac.com/herinst/sbeder/grave.html) You’ll notice, if you click, that this was written by an Australian professor. An American or European one probably would have destroyed her career publishing it. All in all, she is saying most of the world takes work entirely too seriously. I know we in the US do - I’ve just been through a major thrash with several such individuals. > [@](#): > > I am going to do something that is very rarely done and that is question the work ethic. **The work ethic is one of the most neglected problems in society today** , and at the root of many social ills and environmental problems. It’s at the heart of what I propose is a major environmental problem; there is too much production in affluent countries. All of the things we are producing day after day are not only creating a huge environmental impact - in terms of resource use, pollution, waste disposal and so on - but in order to get people to buy this huge amount of products, we are constantly bombarded with advertisements and marketing and turned into hyper-consumers. We are taught to be discontent with our lot. Subsequently, we have a situation in our society where **the work ethic has become pathological. It was once very useful and important to the development of Western societies but no longer.** > > The situation we have today is that everyone is getting busier. Have you noticed this? That everyone is really busy. They don’t have time to see you. They don’t have adequate time for their families, for relationships. They don’t have time to get involved in politics. They don’t have time to be informed citizens. They don’t have time for personal development. They don’t have time for social or spiritual development. **We are all just so focused on work that the important things in life are being neglected.** This imbalance, this focus on work, on busy-ness and long hours is creating stresses in our society that manifest as rising rates of depression, suicide, drug use and accidents (to name a few). > > Employment and the creation of jobs is such a priority that environmental degradation is justified on the grounds that it will provide jobs. We’re so keen to hang on to our jobs that we are willing to do whatever our employers ask of us, regardless of whether it is aligned with our principles or whether we think it is beneficial to society. **What I’m going to question is whether there is a social benefit in having the majority of adults working hard all week.** Few people can imagine a society that is any different. No matter how tedious a job is, it’s supposed to be better than no job at all. Now for the self-revelation. I am, by the standards of good honest people, a leech, a layabout and a sponge. I’m fortunate to come from a well-to-do family and unfortunate to have (mental and emotional) issues that make full-time employment less than feasible. And I am, frankly, shocked and saddened by the force and conviction with which many people defend the status quo and insist that work _ought_ to be stressful, disillusioning, dehumanizing, _and_ the center of our lives. In part, I want to find out exactly what people _mean_ by a work ethic, hopefully by way of defining what it should and should not be, and what it must and need not be. I sometimes wonder if it is really _taught_ at all, merely passed down by example, modeling, reward and punishment. We probably do need _a_ work ethic, but I believe it must be questioned and made better. That said, a few points. - If you feel contempt for people who do not work full time, _ **please stop reading this thread now.** _ It will almost certainly make you angry and offend your morality. - If this describes you, and you _do_ choose to keep reading, _ **post at your own risk.** _ We’re in the Pit, and I reserve the right to caricaturize, strawman, selectively quote, twist words, and/or deliberately misconstrue. I am that pissed off about the issue, and have been for an awfully long time, so kindly don’t lay “reality” or “the way things are” on me and expect a meek nod in response. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/2 "2009-05-06T16:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > If this describes you, and you do choose to keep reading, post at your own risk. We’re in the Pit, and I reserve the right to caricaturize, strawman, selectively quote, twist words, and/or deliberately misconstrue. I am that pissed off about the issue, and have been for an awfully long time, so kindly don’t lay “reality” or “the way things are” on me and expect a meek nod in response. “I have every right to be a dishonest prat.” Yeah, uh, no fucking thank you. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/3 "2009-05-06T16:16:27Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > We’re in the Pit, and I reserve the right to caricaturize, strawman, selectively quote, twist words, and/or deliberately misconstrue. I am that pissed off about the issue, and have been for an awfully long time, so kindly don’t lay “reality” or “the way things are” on me and expect a meek nod in response. IOW, you don’t actually have any ideas or an actual case; if you posted in GD, smarter people would make mincemeat of your arguments. But you want people to respond to you here so you can attack them. Layabout, maybe. Asshole for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/4 "2009-05-06T16:19:41Z")
I’m a little confused about how having a good work ethic means that one believes “work ought to be stressful, disillusioning, dehumanizing, and the center of our lives.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/5 "2009-05-06T16:20:51Z")
One thing I’ve learned is it’s not a good idea to seek advice for depression or emotional troubles on an anonymous message board. As far as the work ethic goes, if you can support yourself without working and be happy, go for it. It works for Paris Hilton. However, based on the now locked thread it doesn’t seem to be working for you. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/6 "2009-05-06T16:22:53Z")
Well, I’m an artist, and I would like nothing more than to find some wealthy sponsor so I could live, play and write music sometimes, and explore a more relaxed way of life. The thing is, I need to pay bills. I need to pay rent, I need to eat, and I need my car. I need clothes, and I need to be able to have some nice extravagances sometimes. I work pretty darned hard for not that much, doing what I love to do. I’d rather not feel the pressure of needing to make ends meet, but I’m not sure how you suggest I solve that problem. I mean, in your situation, it sounds like you have family who facilitate your lifestyle to some degree. Well, what if I don’t have that. Or what if I did, but they didn’t feel obligated to let me live off of their work. When you get down to it, in a money-driven world, someone needs to be working to pay your way, even if it isn’t you. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/7 "2009-05-06T16:27:39Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > One thing I’ve learned is it’s not a good idea to seek advice for depression or emotional troubles on an anonymous message board. > > As far as the work ethic goes, if you can support yourself without working and be happy, go for it. It works for Paris Hilton. However, based on the now locked thread it doesn’t seem to be working for you. I didn’t read the other thread, but I’m with you, **Larry Borgia** …I think the OP is equating the terms “work ethic” and “personal responsibility.” As long as you can support yourself in the manner you desire without working too hard, go for it! Most people have to work at least a little bit in order to feed, clothe, and house themselves, and I think that’s the bare minimum you have to do. No fair asking people who ARE willing to work hard to support you while you have a life of leisure. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/8 "2009-05-06T16:29:23Z")
I agree that the work ethic has turned some of us into robots who miss out on a lot the world has to offer, but I don’t think it’s \*work, per se, \* that’s the problem, but the endless desire for stuff. There are plenty of cases to be made both for working and kicking back to smell the roses. The problem arises when you expect someone else to care for you when you _don’t feel_ like caring for yourself. If you can find someone who’s willing to carry you, no matter what the reason, then that’s your choice. I am happy to be part of a society that helps those who can’t help themselves. I don’t mind paying taxes. That said, unemployment means less control over one’s life. I don’t like the thought of having to defer to someone else, be it the government or a spouse, for every financial decision I make. I believe that while work can limit a person, it can also provide a degree of freedom. I personally would not be happy doing “nothing” all day. If I had the means to maintain my modest lifestyle and not work, I would pursue other activities – both personal and charitable – to fill my days. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/9 "2009-05-06T16:32:44Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > “I have every right to be a dishonest prat.” How’d you get _that_ out of it? [quote=] I’m a little confused about how having a good work ethic means that one believes “work ought to be stressful, disillusioning, dehumanizing, and the center of our lives.” [/quote] OK, you tell me what “a good work ethic” means. Then tell me whether your boss agrees with you. > [@furt](#): > > […] you want people to respond to you here so you can attack them. No. I want _them_ to think twice before attacking _me_. More importantly, though, I want to _discuss_ what is wrong with our work ethic. I want to question it and tear it apart. And I _don’t_ need some GD-worthy original thesis to do that. Prof. Beder’s essay, even the boldface bits of it, is enough to start. (Thank you **Kalhoun** for a sensitive and considered reply, btw.) Is questioning the work ethic just too painful for most of us? Is it likely to stir up the flock and start a pecking frenzy? > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > One thing I’ve learned is it’s not a good idea to seek advice for depression or emotional troubles on an anonymous message board. Funny thing though - I got some good and caring advice over at the closed thread. Then I got a tough-love asskicker and didn’t show him the required submissive attitude. That drew the flock, beaks at the ready. What about an anonymous board is it, do you think? The dehumanizing factor? I’m not so sure some of these people wouldn’t have pecked me bloody IRL, honestly. I’ve had it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/10 "2009-05-06T16:42:48Z")
I would tell you what I think, but I only have thirty seconds for my lunch break, and then I have to be back at my desk or my boss will dock my pay. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/11 "2009-05-06T16:46:10Z")
I’d ask my boss why he makes me work hard, but seeing as I’m self-employed, I’m pretty sure I know what his response will be. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/12 "2009-05-06T16:49:57Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > How’d you get _that_ out of it? For me, it was when you said [QUOTE=Beware of Doug] I reserve the right to caricaturize, strawman, selectively quote, twist words, and/or deliberately misconstrue. [/QUOTE] I mean, what’s the point of even talking if you say from the start you reject the idea of a fair discussion? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/13 "2009-05-06T16:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] OK, you tell me what “a good work ethic” means. Then tell me whether your boss agrees with you. [/QUOTE] Sure. Good work ethic means I do the job I’m paid to do in an acceptable manner. Yes, my boss agrees with me. Seems pretty straightforward to me. I didn’t see the other thread either (ironically, I was working ;)), but my guess is I’d be ranged with Sarahfeena, Larry Borgia, etc…if you can maintain the standard of living you desire without working then more power to you. I, sadly, do not have that option…or, I suppose, in an effort to be precise, I choose to maintain a certain standard of living which forces me to toil away (while attempting to at least minimally engage in interesting threads on this Message Board). -XT ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/14 "2009-05-06T16:53:09Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > OK, you tell me what “a good work ethic” means. Then tell me whether your boss agrees with you. 😕 There are zillions of kinds of personalities to be found in bosses … and true slave-drivers are actually a thin minority. **Kalhoun’s** response is closest to the mark so far, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/15 "2009-05-06T16:56:28Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > In part, I want to find out exactly what people _mean_ by a work ethic, hopefully by way of defining what it should and should not be, and what it must and need not be. I sometimes wonder if it is really _taught_ at all, merely passed down by example, modeling, reward and punishment. We probably do need _a_ work ethic, but I believe it must be questioned and made better. A good work ethic, to me, is two things. The ability to leave your outside life at the door when you begin work; and the ability to work hard regardless of what the job is or what you are getting paid. If your job is scooping ice creaming, you try to make the best damned ice cream scoops ever. Perfectly spherical, not too big not too small, never falling off the cone, etc. And you don’t scoop just enough to justify your wages, and you don’t only scoop for people you like or who are nice to you, and you don’t scoop well just because you are hoping for a tip or a ‘thank you’. You do your job well because it’s your job, and you take pride in your work. And if you think everyone would be better off with a non-dairy diet, you keep that to yourself while you’re scooping. You don’t talk politics and you don’t talk religion, and if the customer asks you how you are doing the day after your house burned down and your dog died, you tell him you’ve never been happier, because you’re at work and you’re doing your job. You leave everything else at the door except your ice cream scoop and hat. I agree with some of the other replies – a good work ethic only applies to people who work. The notion of a good work ethic isn’t that if you don’t need to work you should. It’s that if you are working, you work well. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/16 "2009-05-06T16:59:33Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > - If this describes you, and you _do_ choose to keep reading, _ **post at your own risk.** _ We’re in the Pit, and I reserve the right to caricaturize, strawman, selectively quote, twist words, and/or deliberately misconstrue. I am that pissed off about the issue, and have been for an awfully long time, so kindly don’t lay “reality” or “the way things are” on me and expect a meek nod in response. And we reserve the right to call you out as the pitifull douche you are. I’m pretty sure you don’t want to get into a “feelings hurting” contest with me. What is it you are pitting exactly? The idea that you should be able to support yourself? That if someone is going to pay you for your efforts, you should do the best job you can? That if someone is going to be hired for a job it should go to the person with the best qualifications and the best attitude? Please explain exactly what you are so bent out of shape about? People like me who work for a living do not exist to support your need. Your family apparently will support you, so the least you could do is not criticize the manner in which they provide the support. You say you are in your 40s? I swear you sound like a spoiled 12 year old (although I imagine you haven’t grown much since then anyway). Anyhow, I have to go to a conference meeting now so I leave you wallowing here depressed about the good life. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/17 "2009-05-06T16:59:43Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I mean, what’s the point of even talking if you say from the start you reject the idea of a fair discussion? Only for those who come in not wanting to debate, but to lay down a Big Fat Truth on some poor naïve thumbsucker and Show Him How Things Really Are. That’s a very common strategy for people who instinctively stand up for the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/18 "2009-05-06T17:04:12Z")
I read a little bit of the closed thread. I have some questions: Was there a heavy expectation put upon you by your parents? Do you like them? Do you agree with them but can’t seem to find an approach? Do you like the lifestyle of the well-to-do? I ask this because you may be trying to conform to an expectation that isn’t what you’re about. It happens a lot. Although there may be a mental illness component involved here, it might also be that you aren’t interested in high achievement and conspicuous consumerism because it’s just not “you.” Have you considered getting involved in charitable work? It may be just the ticket to a meaningful existence for you. My brother, who is very intelligent and an extremely talented musician, has never worked a job that provided for more than the bare necessities of life. Sure, sometimes he wishes he had enough money for some of the nicer things in life, but for the most part, he works his charitable job and is happy helping others. He seems happy living a minimalist lifestyle. Maybe you just aren’t interested in what other people _want_ you to be interested in. You can be successful without being wealthy. You can live a meaningful life without being well-to-do. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/19 "2009-05-06T17:04:31Z")
I would disagree with some of this. Sure, some people bought into the “work ethic” lock, stock, and barrel. They become workaholics. Their life revolves around it, their entire being seems to be defined by what they do. But, that does not hold true for everyone. Many of us do not live to work. Instead, we “work to live”. Work, a job, is a way of financing our “real life stuff”. A paycheck buys our food, pays our bills, lets us accumulate our toys. Work is not our life. It simply supports the life we want to have. I myself have NO problem whatsoever in distinguishing between work time and “my time”. I can leave work at the office. I’ve learned how to say “that’s your job and you’re not dumping it on me”. I’ve learned when someone wants me to take on extra work outside my “area”, to say “what’s in it for me”. You want more work and more responsibility? OK, do I get something in return? Will you take this other job away so I have time to do this new thing? After all, while I don’t mind working (too much), I prefer to do real work as opposed to “make work”. I prefer to have enough to keep occupied, without being grossly bogged down and overwhelmed. I’m an employee, not a “pack mule”. A sensible work ethic (to me) means, you pay me to do something. By accepting your money, I agree to do that thing. We may disagree on the best way to do it, we may even argue about that. But, you are paying me to take care of something you need done. I’m not a workaholic, by any stretch. The work ethic, as I defined it (sort of) is nothing more than keeping to your agreements. The boss pays you to do something. You agree to do it. Work can be stressful sometimes. Several suspenses happen at the same time, someone is clogging up the works, something just can not be done for any reason. Stuff happens sometimes. You deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Sundrop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sundrop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sundrop)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/20 "2009-05-06T17:09:15Z")
Oh no. A lazy, slack, worthless pile of leechery masquerading as a human has questioned my work ethic and implied, in a painfully transparent attempt to boost his own self-image despite being a total zero, that because I like being productive and self-sufficient that this somehow makes me a loser. Whatever will I do? Oh, I know what I will do. I will continue to take satisfaction in doing a job I enjoy and doing it well, knowing that I’m putting my productive capacities to good use, benefiting myself and others in the process. I’ll continue to strive to make myself better so I can realize my full potential. I’ll also continue to cash the checks and use it to eat good food, provide myself with a place to live, take fun vacations, and drive a kick-ass car. I’ll also go home tonight and have sex with my gorgeous wife, because, oddly enough, women actually like men who aren’t children in the body of a grown man. When we have children, I’ll also be able to provide them the tools they need to not be the sort of disappointment who blames everything but his own incomptence for his complete, abject failure at being a human being, the way I’m certain you’re a disappointment to your own parents. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545.md?page=2)