# I Pit the Work Ethic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545 "2009-05-06T15:46:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/21 "2009-05-06T17:14:40Z")
‘Good work ethic’ is going to be in the mind of the beholder obviously. To me it doesn’t equate to ‘workaholic’…that’s like saying someone who drinks occasionally is an alcoholic. Myself, ‘good work ethic’ equates to giving value for value…companies who hire me require me to do X for them and are willing to pay me Y for doing it. Assuming we can agree on the Y value then I’ll do X for them to the best of my ability. If they want me to do X+N then they had better be willing to compensate me in some manner over and above Y…and if they aren’t then I’ll take my talent and go elsewhere. It’s a two way street. I’m not sure where this idea that ‘good work ethic’ equates to mindless and dehumanizing labor…perhaps from the lack of experience of the OP in a real career or long term job. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/22 "2009-05-06T17:22:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ‘Good work ethic’ is going to be in the mind of the beholder obviously. To me it doesn’t equate to ‘workaholic’…that’s like saying someone who drinks occasionally is an alcoholic. Myself, ‘good work ethic’ equates to giving value for value…companies who hire me require me to do X for them and are willing to pay me Y for doing it. Assuming we can agree on the Y value then I’ll do X for them to the best of my ability. If they want me to do X+N then they had better be willing to compensate me in some manner over and above Y…and if they aren’t then I’ll take my talent and go elsewhere. It’s a two way street. > > I’m not sure where this idea that ‘good work ethic’ equates to mindless and dehumanizing labor…perhaps from the lack of experience of the OP in a real career or long term job. > > -XT I agree with this assessment of what having a work ethic is all about. I would take it a bit farther, though, because most people also work at things that aren’t rewarded with money, and getting paid isn’t the be-all end-all of life. For instance, I work at my job, and what you say here applies 100%. I also work at keeping my house in reasonable condition, taking care of my kids, doing some volunteer work at my church, etc. Those things are rewarded on a different level. I have read the OP’s other thread now, and I think in his circumstance, there’s nothing wrong with not earning a paycheck (although doing so might make him feel better about himself), but one way or another, a person needs to do something to feel useful or rewarded in life. If a person doesn’t need to earn money, then maybe the thing to do is to help others through volunteer work. If the OP’s disdain for having a work ethic applies to that kind of work as well, then I have a bit more of a problem with his attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/23 "2009-05-06T17:22:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And we reserve the right to call you out as the pitifull douche you are. I’m pretty sure you don’t want to get into a “feelings hurting” contest with me. Yes yes I know. I should really get down on my knees, submit to someone’s -anyone’s - tough love trip, and be grateful. One L in pitiful, btw. (I guess we know what skills are worth rewarding in your line of work, and what aren’t.) > [@](#): > > What is it you are pitting exactly? The idea that you should be able to support yourself? I agree we _should_ be able to. I don’t agree that we deserve no help or understanding if we have problems doing so - _including_ a lack of self-esteem or mental/emotional issues that the engineers/businesspeople among us can’t point at or run numbers on. > [@](#): > > That if someone is going to pay you for your efforts, you should do the best job you can? If someone is going to pay me _anything_, I should do _everything_? How about if they’re deliberately underpaying? Or overworking? You seem uncomfortable with the idea of too much dignity in the workplace, **m**. I wonder what it’s like having you for a boss. > [@](#): > > That if someone is going to be hired for a job it should go to the person with the best qualifications and the best attitude? Seems fair - as long as you define “good attitude” as something other than hyper-competitive ass kissing and/or abuse taking. > [@](#): > > Please explain exactly what you are so bent out of shape about? The pervasive attitude that we are the best and brightest nation on earth precisely _because_ we don’t care for each other as much as we ought to. I admit I tend to obsess over that, but that’s because it actually _is_ true in so many places. > [@](#): > > You say you are in your 40s? I swear you sound like a spoiled 12 year old (although I imagine you haven’t grown much since then anyway). If I _didn’t_ sound like a spoiled 12yo to a hardass absolutist like you, I would be concerned I was _really_ losing my grip. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/24 "2009-05-06T17:22:42Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Now for the self-revelation. I am, by the standards of good honest people, a leech, a layabout and a sponge. I’m fortunate to come from a well-to-do family and unfortunate to have (mental and emotional) issues that make full-time employment less than feasible. And I am, frankly, shocked and saddened by the force and conviction with which many people defend the status quo and insist that work _ought_ to be stressful, disillusioning, dehumanizing, _and_ the center of our lives. Oh God. Where to begin? Well, I also have emotional issues with my full-time employment. Mainly, I find it fucking boring. Unfortunately, I also like living in a house instead of a box, so I deal. Look, I actually have no major qualms with the rich leisure class. In fact, I find them one thousand times more tolerable than poor people with a chip on their shoulder. (“I think the fact that I got a degree from Bumblefuck State while working through school is more impressive than some rich kid with a degree from Harvard or MIT.” Uh, no, it’s Bumblefuck State, fer chrissakes!) At least the rich kids will buy your lunch or booze or let you stay at their summer place on the Vineyard every now and again. But you combine the worst of both worlds. Unfair advantage and entitlement coupled with a chip on your shoulder. Wake up at 10:30, have your mimosa, spend the day at Starbucks and your fiction-writing workshop – that’s all fine, but please, no lectures on our miserable lives unless you endorse that trust fund distribution check over to me. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/25 "2009-05-06T17:33:18Z")
> [@Sundrop](#): > > Oh no. A lazy, slack, worthless pile of leechery masquerading as a human has questioned my work ethic and implied, in a painfully transparent attempt to boost his own self-image despite being a total zero, that because I like being productive and self-sufficient that this somehow makes me a loser. Whatever will I do? Thank you soooo very kindly for reminding us that one cannot control one’s self-image. A zero is a zero is a zero, and he ought to just shut up and reap his zero-wages in life. > [@](#): > > Oh, I know what I will do. I will continue to take satisfaction in doing a job I enjoy and doing it well, knowing that I’m putting my productive capacities to good use, benefiting myself and others in the process. I’ll continue to strive to make myself better so I can realize my full potential. I’ll also continue to cash the checks and use it to eat good food, provide myself with a place to live, take fun vacations, and drive a kick-ass car. I’ll also go home tonight and have sex with my gorgeous wife, because, oddly enough, women actually like men who aren’t children in the body of a grown man. When we have children, I’ll also be able to provide them the tools they need to not be the sort of disappointment who blames everything but his own incomptence for his complete, abject failure at being a human being, the way I’m certain you’re a disappointment to your own parents. Why don’t I invite you to my wedding? You can be the one who Speaks Now Or Forever Holds His Peace. You’ll be doing the poor deluded bride-to-be the favor of a lifetime. You, pal, are heavily invested in the status quo, and you would break my windshield with a golf club if I criticized it to your face. I have no need of you or your so-called reality check. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/26 "2009-05-06T17:34:14Z")
I’m lucky. I’ve hardly ever worked. Yes, I go to the office, and get paid, but the stuff I get to do is so cool and so much fun that I’d do it for nothing. As it is, I get enough to send my kids to college and support my wife as she was ramping up to doing what she loves. And I’ll add a hearty amen to **KidScruffy** ’s post. Is doing a good job any more tiring than doing a bad one? Quite the opposite in my book. Now I’m lucky in that I’ve never had to build widgets all day, but that might be because I had the same work ethic in school. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/27 "2009-05-06T17:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I agree with this assessment of what having a work ethic is all about. I would take it a bit farther, though, because most people also work at things that aren’t rewarded with money, and getting paid isn’t the be-all end-all of life. For instance, I work at my job, and what you say here applies 100%. I also work at keeping my house in reasonable condition, taking care of my kids, doing some volunteer work at my church, etc. Those things are rewarded on a different level. I have read the OP’s other thread now, and I think in his circumstance, there’s nothing wrong with not earning a paycheck (although doing so might make him feel better about himself), but one way or another, a person needs to do something to feel useful or rewarded in life. If a person doesn’t need to earn money, then maybe the thing to do is to help others through volunteer work. If the OP’s disdain for having a work ethic applies to that kind of work as well, then I have a bit more of a problem with his attitude. [/QUOTE] I haven’t read the OP’s other thread so not sure where he’s coming from as far as his disdain for a work ethic…my guess is it’s tied up with his own (perhaps skewed) definition of what a ‘work ethic’ actually is. And just based on what I’ve seen in THIS thread my guess is that this pretty directly correlates to the OP’s actual experience (or lack there of) in working. I agree that there are many other things than money (or direct rewards) to working…and that we work for myriad reasons that don’t all have to do with making a living. I think that the definition of what is a reasonable ‘work ethic’ is going to be an individual thing and vary pretty widely for each of us. A more interesting OP would have asked ‘What is your definition of a work ethic?’…the OP might have gotten a bit more perspective on this had he gone that route, instead of starting a Pit thread about his own definition of what a work ethic is projected on everyone else. C’est la vie. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/28 "2009-05-06T17:36:51Z")
Everybody says they Deal With It. Nobody ever says _how_ they Deal With It. Is this yet another of those very important things in life we’re not supposed to need any help with? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/29 "2009-05-06T17:41:10Z")
It should be in your Owners Manual…it’s near the section on how to raise your kids and fix the plumbing… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/30 "2009-05-06T17:46:50Z")
I always understood “Deal with it” (period) to be a curt, uncaring, and dismissive response. Sort of along the lines of “Bottle it up. Let it fester. Let it keep you up nights. But don’t you dare try to negotiate, or get around it, or ask for anything better. Because Real Life is in charge here, and when Real Life says jump, you better be asking how high.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/31 "2009-05-06T17:49:28Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I agree we _should_ be able to. I don’t agree that we deserve no help or understanding if we have problems doing so - _including_ a lack of self-esteem or mental/emotional issues that the engineers/businesspeople among us can’t point at or run numbers on. The problem appears that you are expecting random business people to act like mental health professionals. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/32 "2009-05-06T17:52:36Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > I always understood “Deal with it” (period) to be a curt, uncaring, and dismissive response. Sort of along the lines of “Bottle it up. Let it fester. Let it keep you up nights. But don’t you dare try to negotiate, or get around it, or ask for anything better. Because Real Life is in charge here, and when Real Life says jump, you better be asking how high.” Question for you, meant with all good intentions. What would you do if you DIDN’T have parents who could support you? Have you thought about how you would deal with it then? I mean, I would love to be able to lay out some easy way to explain it, but I’ve never thought about it all that much. I had to support myself, so I did. Got a job, worked, got paid. Most of my jobs have been pretty boring, and annoying when they weren’t boring. Generally, not fun. Didn’t enjoy them, just dealt with it. So…I don’t think people mean to be curt, dismissive, and uncaring, they are just treating you they way they’ve treated themselves, which basically means they didn’t put a lot of thought into how to deal with life, they just did it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/33 "2009-05-06T17:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] I always understood “Deal with it” (period) to be a curt, uncaring, and dismissive response. Sort of along the lines of “Bottle it up. Let it fester. Let it keep you up nights. But don’t you dare try to negotiate, or get around it, or ask for anything better. Because Real Life is in charge here, and when Real Life says jump, you better be asking how high.” [/QUOTE] Well…think of it in these terms. The person telling you to ‘deal with it’ is actually saying ‘Life is rough but I’m able to deal with this shit so you should be able to do so to.’. Dealing with life is just one of those things that the majority of people are forced to do…and so they have little sympathy with those who can’t (or won’t). Pretty much human nature…people aren’t really very well suited to putting themselves into others shoes, especially when those others don’t conform to the norms of society. And pretty much all of human society since there WERE humans has revolved around working in some form or other…generally REAL back breaking and dehumanizing labor until death, with certain death if you didn’t do it and the possibility of death even if you did. Sucks to be a human. Wish I were a dog or an otter… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/34 "2009-05-06T17:54:21Z")
The problem is that I expect random business people to act like the human beings they are. This, however, would violate the all-important tenet of leaving your outside life at the office door. We want machines, not human beings. It goes beyond not being grumpy, rude or diffident with the ice-cream-buying public. It’s about understanding that money requires you to turn off your fucking _soul_. ---
**Author:** ![anu-la1979](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/47e85d/32.png) [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/35 "2009-05-06T18:06:39Z")
But you have a source of money that doesn’t require you to turn off your soul so why are you so upset? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/36 "2009-05-06T18:08:08Z")
I suspect that it would do you some good to get a job. You may find that your ‘issues’ go away, or at least become diminished. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/37 "2009-05-06T18:09:57Z")
Heh, on the topic of “deal with it” - in many people’s lives there comes a moment when they realize that their parents are **not** in fact going to always support them unconditionally (either because they cannot or because they will not). When they realize that, in fact, _no-one will_. That’s when (most people) realize the it is up to them to support themselves - not just out of want, but out of need. That “need” may be a bad thing, but ultimately someone has to actually produce stuff; anyone who does not must in some way be a burden on those who do. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/38 "2009-05-06T18:10:06Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Everybody says they Deal With It. > > Nobody ever says _how_ they Deal With It. > > Is this yet another of those very important things in life we’re not supposed to need any help with? Funny you should say that. I can think of no subject that comes up more frequently among “professionals”. I also tend to be very interested in eudaimonism in general. All the same, a lunch out with colleagues does not occur without us discussing, at least in some respect, how we make our peace with our lives. This is not a short subject, but it is one that I care passionately about. I have worked a variety of different jobs at varying levels of “dehumanization”. I think we can have a more productive and dispassionate conversation elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/39 "2009-05-06T18:11:21Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > The problem is that I expect random business people to act like the human beings they are. Why do you even care? You’re rich, they have to work for a living. They would all sooner be in your shoes than you’d be in theirs. Christ, you’re ruining my fantasy of being an alternately drunken and coked-up layabout with all this hand-wringing and hemming and hawing. You’re living the dream, man! Start acting like it! ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/40 "2009-05-06T18:17:13Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > No. I want _them_ to think twice before attacking _me_. Your threats have been duly noted, and I’ll go hide under my desk now. I agree with you, though, that the work ethic can get out of hand. I don’t see the point in having a society that doesn’t result in the people in it leading better lives, and if we are so busy that that starts to suffer, then society is not serving its purpose. That being said, I enjoy indoor plumbing, electricity, and having cures for diseases and am perfectly willing to work as a cog in the machine to ensure that the system keeps working, while trying to retain balance. The reason your deadbeat existence is frowned upon is because, if everyone were like you, the system would break down and my electricity, internet, and access to modern medical care would likely be in some peril. I work because I do want the system to work, because I enjoy my job, and because I like having the cash to do the things I want and to meet my own needs. I don’t find it necessary that everyone do this, and if I were independently wealthy, I would probably feel guilty about keeping my job (as it’s a space someone else could have), though I probably wouldn’t want to quit. It in no way hurts my soul to go to work at my job, which I feel is valuable and fulfilling. I’ve never worked a particularly dehumanizing job, though, so others’ mileage will vary. You may be overestimating the extent to which others find their jobs to be dehumanizing. I talk to my coworkers about their families, people take off for vacations, or appointments, or whatever, some of them have kids, and most of them seem pretty happy. They don’t seem to feel dehumanized. To answer your OP, I consider a good work ethic to be a sense of balance and a willingness to not cut corners in any part of your life. Much of a normal person’s day could be considered work in some way: preparing food, working in the lawn, child rearing, working to maintain personal relationships (sometimes recreational, sometimes a pain in the neck!), working to keep their house livable, their laundry clean, their bills in order, and the list goes on. In fact, a paying job could be a relatively small portion of someone’s work. I wouldn’t consider someone who was at work 80 hours a week at the expense of his other obligations to have a particularly good work ethic(assuming he’d made a commitment to other things. If he just wanted to work, more power to him) , but others would . I would consider someone with a good work ethic to be someone who has goals and works consistently and diligently toward them, whatever they are. The only hard part for me is wanting more hours in the day, because there’s only so much time for all this stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545.md?page=3)