# I Pit the Work Ethic **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545 "2009-05-06T15:46:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/41 "2009-05-06T18:20:08Z")
“The situation we have today is that everyone is getting busier. Have you noticed this? That everyone is really busy. They don’t have time to see you. They don’t have adequate time for their families, for relationships. They don’t have time to get involved in politics. They don’t have time to be informed citizens. They don’t have time for personal development. They don’t have time for social or spiritual development. We are all just so focused on work that the important things in life are being neglected. This imbalance, this focus on work, on busy-ness and long hours is creating stresses in our society that manifest as rising rates of depression, suicide, drug use and accidents (to name a few).” This is from the original paper. I call bullshit. "A pair of economists have looked closely at how Americans actually spend their time. Mark Aguiar (at the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston) and Erik Hurst (at the University of Chicago’s Graduate School of Business) constructed four different measures of leisure.\* The narrowest includes only activities that nearly everyone considers relaxing or fun; the broadest counts anything that is not related to a paying job, housework or errands as “leisure”. No matter how the two economists slice the data, Americans seem to have much more free time than before. Over the past four decades, depending on which of their measures one uses, the amount of time that working-age Americans are devoting to leisure activities has risen by 4-8 hours a week. (For somebody working 40 hours a week, that is equivalent to 5-10 weeks of extra holiday a year.) Nearly every category of American has more spare time: single or married, with or without children, both men and women. The only twist is that less educated (and thus poorer) Americans have done relatively better than more educated ones (see chart). And that is not just because unemployed high-school drop-outs have more free time on their hands. Less educated Americans with jobs—the overstretched middle class of political lore—do very well." We don’t work more than every. We relax more than ever. If people think they don’t have time to see friends or volunteer, it’s because they spend too much time playing. Not too much time working. > **[Americans Have More Leisure Time Than Ever](https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/americans_have_more_leisure_time_than_ever/)** > > A new study claims that, despite feeling stressed and overworked, Americans have more leisure time than ever before. > > > > > A pair of economists have looked closely at how Americans actually spend their time. Mark Aguiar (at the Federal Reserve Bank of... ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/42 "2009-05-06T18:22:15Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] The problem is that I expect random business people to act like the human beings they are. [/QUOTE] Um…ok. In your experience, how do they (in general of course…must paint with a broad brush) NOT act like the human beings they are? Can you give some examples? From my perspective they DO act quite human…sometimes distressingly so. > [@](#): > > This, however, would violate the all-important tenet of leaving your outside life at the office door. Again, this doesn’t actually happen much in the real world. You WANT to try and leave your outside life at the door (to stay sane), but the reality is that this almost never happens. > [@](#): > > We want machines, not human beings. It goes beyond not being grumpy, rude or diffident with the ice-cream-buying public. It’s about understanding that money requires you to turn off your fucking soul. Who’s ‘we’ kimosabe? Money doesn’t require you to ‘turn off your fucking soul’…for those unfortunate enough to have to work to live, work requires you to make sacrifices in order to do things like eat and have shelter, to have electricity and surf porn on the internet and go to Disneyland. You figure our ancestors had it better? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/43 "2009-05-06T18:23:16Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Question for you, meant with all good intentions. What would you do if you DIDN’T have parents who could support you? Have you thought about how you would deal with it then? I mean, I would love to be able to lay out some easy way to explain it, but I’ve never thought about it all that much. I had to support myself, so I did. Got a job, worked, got paid. Most of my jobs have been pretty boring, and annoying when they weren’t boring. Generally, not fun. Didn’t enjoy them, just dealt with it. So…I don’t think people mean to be curt, dismissive, and uncaring, they are just treating you they way they’ve treated themselves, which basically means they didn’t put a lot of thought into how to deal with life, they just did it. I agree with this 100%. In my experience, those people who didn’t WANT to deal with it (as opposed to those who _can’t_) have often times found a way around it. They create a job they like, seek more enjoyable work, cheat the system, or go off the grid altogether. Grow your own food. Do day labor for cash. Walk dogs. Water plants. If you lower your expecations for the material things in life, you’ll find you can live on much less than you think you can. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/44 "2009-05-06T18:25:48Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Why do you even care? You’re rich, they have to work for a living. They would all sooner be in your shoes than you’d be in theirs. > > Christ, you’re ruining my fantasy of being an alternately drunken and coked-up layabout with all this hand-wringing and hemming and hawing. You’re living the dream, man! Start acting like it! Actually, I know several drunken coked up trustifarians, and to a man (and woman) they are miserable sods - neither happy nor likable. My suspicion is that having infinite leasure time isn’t really very good for the character - though I’ll admit there are days when I’d like a chance to find out personally. 😃 I also think that we tend in the modern world to under-rate the importance of personal pride in accomplishments, such as “doing a hard job well” and “providing for oneself”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/45 "2009-05-06T18:26:26Z")
> [@Vihaga](#): > > … and if I were independently wealthy, I would probably feel guilty about keeping my job (as it’s a space someone else could have), though I probably wouldn’t want to quit. You would feel “guilty” about keeping your job if you won the Powerball the same way I feel “guilty” about allowing perfectly good booze to go undrunk when there are all those sober kids in India who don’t have anything to drink. ---
**Author:** ![Vihaga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Vihaga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vihaga)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/46 "2009-05-06T18:29:44Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > You would feel “guilty” about keeping your job if you won the Powerball the same way I feel “guilty” about allowing perfectly good booze to go undrunk when there are all those sober kids in India who don’t have anything to drink. Won’t someone think of the children! (I actually kind of would, mostly because grants are so competitive right now that my having one means that someone I know isn’t getting it. It’s not as abstract, which is why I’d feel guilty.) ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/47 "2009-05-06T18:36:39Z")
**Doug** , you seem like a bitter, bitter guy. You can’t stand your own life, but you feel the need to criticize everyone else’s. You think that anyone who has a job has sold out and become a drone. I know you said that you don’t want people to tell you to face reality, but honestly, for your own good, please face reality. It sounds like your model of the world has come from TV shows. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/48 "2009-05-06T18:37:07Z")
We’ve got two teenagers and a twenty year old in our store. In general we’ve got a pretty relaxed atmosphere because we’re a small operation in a small company. What bugs me is this: These young’uns do really crappy, half-ass jobs a lot of the time, especially when it comes to keeping the store looking nice. For example, if I sweep the store it takes about 20-25 minutes and the sweep pile is very big. If one of my teenagers sweeps, it takes about 8-10 minutes and the pile is small. When I tell him that’s not good enough, I get an eyeroll and a slouch and he disappears for another 8-10 minutes with another small pile. He isn’t thorough and, after a couple of days, it really shows. The problem is that he DOESN’T FUCKING CARE. ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/49 "2009-05-06T18:42:32Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > We want machines, not human beings. To paraphrase a quote from one of my favorite movies, “The Big Kahuna”: Of course we want machines, and would prefer machines. And as soon as they invent a machine that can scoop ice cream or sell industrial lubricant or answer telephones or collate or compile TPS reports, a bunch of people will be out of a job. And if someone is rude or inconsiderate to you in a business or professional setting, it’s not because of their work ethic. It’s because they are being a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/50 "2009-05-06T18:42:58Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > How’d you get _that_ out of it? How could you not? You’re reserving the right to lie and be a dick. That really makes me want to listen to anything you have to say. Oh yeah, Deal With It. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/51 "2009-05-06T18:44:51Z")
Basically, you find work and all related issues to be hard, and upsetting to your delicate self. You dont like the phrase “deal with it”, because you don’t _want_ to deal with it. You would much rather the world changed than you. That would be nice wouldnt it. There is no secret to a work ethic. Its just pride in your own achievements, big or small. That you don’t have any isn’t the fault of some rampant commercialism, or all those nasty employers, its just you. I am no hard assed “greed is good” Gordon Gecko wannabe. If I didnt have debt I wouldnt have anything. But even I know the pride of a job well done, and it hasn’t got anything to do with looking for self- justification on the internet. Have some pride for fucks sake. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/52 "2009-05-06T18:50:43Z")
I just want to say, I feel like a 28 year old version of whom you described in the first thread. I actually took what the Doper’s said as useful and not directed to be insulting for the most part. My problem isn’t being lazy, it’s about making decisions and not over-thinking/talking myself out of them that I have a problem with. Almost everything I’ve tried I’ve failed, and I rarely like to leave my apartment, which is subsidized housing because I only work part-time. I plan to work full-time but I get bad panic attacks. Also I’m Dyslexic and have ADD, which didn’t help when it came time to make attempts at higher education. It not an excuse. I hate seeing people “less capable” than me make it far in life, and often wonder how they found the drive to function so well, even though things can be twice as hard. I’m seeing professionals about these issues, so I’m at least being proactive in that way. I’m also a very lonely guy. I feel a women in my life would help me a great deal. Hell, I quit smoking because I promised myself I would if I got to go out on a date with a girl I used to work with… that was ONE date! But, then again, most women like men to have their live’s together BEFORE they come into the picture, (or at least appear as if they do; a lie I can’t pull off even if I wanted to). It’s left me bitter because I I think my mother was too much an influence on my life, the world is definitely not tailor-made for me, and that women seem to over-look other flaws in men, but not mine. I can’t do anything about the outside, but I have to try and muster the energy and the wit inside of myself. I want to be a better person, and not live off the tax-payer’s teet. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/53 "2009-05-06T18:57:24Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Yes yes I know. I should really get down on my knees, submit to someone’s -anyone’s - tough love trip, and be grateful. > > One L in pitiful, btw. (I guess we know what skills are worth rewarding in your line of work, and what aren’t.) See! You’ll finish that English degree yet! I’m not really sure what your point is. Are you implying you are somehow more skilled or intelligent than me or that my work is not worthwhile because you caught a typo? Why should I care about what you think any more than I would care about a homeless guy commenting on my shoes? Sorry, but you haven’t earned the right for me to care about your criticism. What exactly is it that you think people want you to “submit” to? Contributing to society? The only thing I would ask you to submit to is that you sound like an idiot complaining about “work ethic” when you have barely worked a day in your life. Just be happy you don’t have to deal with a daily grind. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Nobody ever says how they Deal With It. There is a short book called “Who Moved My Cheese?” which is fairly popular in business people circles. The simple message of the book is that when your cheese in unexpectedly moved (a metaphor for stuff like losing your job, your big client drops you, or your trust fund runs out) you can bitch and moan and wallow in self pity and cry “it’s not fair” but at the end of the day, you still need to get off your ass and find more cheese. You should also read the book “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand. You remind me of one of the characters. I’ll leave it to other dopers to guess which one. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/54 "2009-05-06T19:00:03Z")
> [@Hung\_Mung](#): > > We’ve got two teenagers and a twenty year old in our store. In general we’ve got a pretty relaxed atmosphere because we’re a small operation in a small company. > > What bugs me is this: These young’uns do really crappy, half-ass jobs a lot of the time, especially when it comes to keeping the store looking nice. For example, if I sweep the store it takes about 20-25 minutes and the sweep pile is very big. If one of my teenagers sweeps, it takes about 8-10 minutes and the pile is small. When I tell him that’s not good enough, I get an eyeroll and a slouch and he disappears for another 8-10 minutes with another small pile. He isn’t thorough and, after a couple of days, it really shows. The problem is that he DOESN’T FUCKING CARE. I hate that and I see it a lot. However, I remember my boss saying the same thing when I worked at Mickey D’s back in 1971. Teenagers are Workers In Training. You learn how to take direction, learn expectation, and are corrected if you do it wrong. In most cases, it sinks in eventually, and thus, a Good Work Ethic is born. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/55 "2009-05-06T19:06:06Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > …I hate seeing people “less capable” than me make it far in life, and often wonder how they found the drive to function so well… I shouldn’t have said it like that. I find it inspirational, and certainly don’t hate it. I’m just dumbfounded that a person with more “limitations” than I have seem to get by and adapt better. I don’t think I learned to adapt very well. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/56 "2009-05-06T19:08:09Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > … > In part, I want to find out exactly what people _mean_ by a work ethic, hopefully by way of defining what it should and should not be, and what it must and need not be. I sometimes wonder if it is really _taught_ at all, merely passed down by example, modeling, reward and punishment. We probably do need _a_ work ethic, but I believe it must be questioned and made better. > … Ok, “in part” you want this discussion. What else do you want? And I notice you use ‘should’ and “should not” and ‘must’, but not ‘is’. Why is that? My work ethic is twofold: 1. My work ethic is to satisfy what my boss’s concept of acceptable performance for my job. 2. My work ethic is to be sure that no one can justifiably point their finger at me and say “he fucked up”. So my work ethic changes from one job to the next. I personally have a concern about how people think about work as the future keeps coming. Sometime in the not too distant future, most of the jobs that exist today will not need humans. What happens then, when 90% or more of the population have no role in the economy? Do they not “deserve” food, clothing, shelter, education, etc… Imagine the conservatives who bellow about the amount of wellfare now – what will they say then? Are people supposed to conveniently die, or stop having children, if they’re no longer needed to run the economy? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/57 "2009-05-06T19:09:02Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > It’s left me bitter because I I think my mother was too much an influence on my life, the world is definitely not tailor-made for me, and that women seem to over-look other flaws in men, but not mine. How so? The mother part, that is. The world isn’t tailor-made for any of us, nor should it be. It takes time to learn which parts fit and which parts we can (or must) do without. Who you are at 20 or 30 or 40 is not who you’ll be down the road. Life is fluid, to say the least. I think a lot of people over-think it and end up disappointed when things don’t go exactly according to plan. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/58 "2009-05-06T19:16:23Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I personally have a concern about how people think about work as the future keeps coming. Sometime in the not too distant future, most of the jobs that exist today will not need humans. What happens then, when 90% or more of the population have no role in the economy? Do they not “deserve” food, clothing, shelter, education, etc… Imagine the conservatives who bellow about the amount of wellfare now – what will they say then? > > Are people supposed to conveniently die, or stop having children, if they’re no longer needed to run the economy? I assume we will face it in the same manner as we faced the crisis caused by the lack of a need for a numerous peasantry to grow food caused by new farming technologies. In short, as one category of work becomes automated, another will open up, hopefully without an excessive amount of social disruption and unfairness (see “Highland Enclosures”). ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/59 "2009-05-06T19:19:32Z")
I wonder what it is you think we are dealing with. For the past 21 years, I’ve been a computer programmer for big companies that most people in the US have heard of. During that entire span, I have had moderately interesting work to do at ever-increasing wages in comfortable surroundings with increasing degree of autonomy. I have had many supervisors, some jerks, some gems, all tolerable. On the worst days I have as a programmer, I remind myself that my job is what I do to pay for the rest of my life, the part that really matters to me. I have always made the attitude expressed in the preceding sentence clear to my bosses, that work is important to me, but not all-important. I have never had anyone complain about my work ethic, and I try, usually successfully, to work 40 hours per week. I work from home two days a week. Before I became a programmer, I worked for 15 years at mostly menial jobs. I worked much harder for longer hours and was not always treated as well as I would have liked. My problem then was that I had not bothered to acquire any valuable skills. When I rectified that, I was able to align my work ethic, my financial goals and my employers’ needs harmoniously. Part of this has been good fortune, part finally making some good choices. Over the past 21 years, I really haven’t noticed the negatives about work that the OP seems fixated on. I would be perfectly happy to read and kayak and play music for the rest of my life, I think, but no one has offered to support while I do that yet. So, I’ll do those fun things when I can, and support myself with a very pleasant occupation. My life in corporate America just doesn’t look anything like what the OP seems to be on about. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545/60 "2009-05-06T19:21:52Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > How so? The mother part, that is. > > The world isn’t tailor-made for any of us, nor should it be. It takes time to learn which parts fit and which parts we can (or must) do without. Who you are at 20 or 30 or 40 is not who you’ll be down the road. Life is fluid, to say the least. I think a lot of people over-think it and end up disappointed when things don’t go exactly according to plan. Well, my father worked a lot of nights, and my mother was overprotective. To be honest, I think a lot of people my age grew up a little too “feminized”. Before anyone would like to grill me on that, I have an open mind, and wouldn’t mind being corrected if my observations are off. I don’t mean it to be a gender thing, I just think the 90’s specifically was a lousy time to grow up as a boy. It’s sort of getting off track of the thread, but when I grew up all the sitcoms on TV and women in the hair salon openly ripped on the male species. That we’re “pigs”, and “only think with our ‘male-parts’”… I made a conscious decisions not to be like that. I was kind of stuck in between “men should always offer to pay for a date”, and “women should get equal pay”. Somewhere in the mix I just felt like I didn’t identify with anyone. Like… I don’t know how to flirt. I think if I did “flirt” I would feel as if I was being too forward. Please have mercy. It’s hard to articulate and I have to rush this post as I’m leaving to go home, but I see lot of guys my age who seem just as lost as I am. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-the-work-ethic/495545.md?page=4)