# I pit these obnoxious pseudo-intellectual poets **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768 "2006-01-20T02:54:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/41 "2006-01-20T23:29:16Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I don’t know, I’d say that in general our cultural paradigm follows a “more with the clever, less with the meaning” M.O. I’m at a point where I welcome profundity (am I using that correctly), even if it’s not the most strongly supported, because at least it tries to communicate something to me, and not just entertain with wit. Of course, combining the two is always a huge plus. Oh, I’m just talking about poetry. I have no problem with profound novels, movies, etc. That said, I’m quite fond of _The Raven_ and _The Road Not Taken_, but free-form angst-flogging gets a pass. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2006, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/42 "2006-01-20T23:53:49Z")
High school poetry isn’t all bad. I was in the creative writing club at my high school, and there was some great poetry, and then a whole lot of people who had some really good stuff going but needed to work on it more. But yeah, some of it was really bad, including some of my poems. I wrote some really bad poems, but I also wrote some that I think are pretty good. I’m almost tempted to ask people here to read them and tell me what they think. Anyway, I think that the biggest reason that high school poetry or internet poetry is so bad is that the people who read it don’t really have any standards and will highly praise something that’s not so good. So when everything that they write gets praised, they don’t try as hard to make really good stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/43 "2006-01-21T02:09:44Z")
I partly agree, and partly STRONGLY DISagree with the OP. I think that having poetry read at a pep rally is stupid. It’s not going to make anyone like poetry, it’s just going to bore people and turn them off of poetry even more than they probably already are. That said, once it’s agreed that the poetry club will get to read a poem at the pep rally, I VEHEMENTLY disagree with the idea that the administration should censor it for anything short of libel/slander/legal obscenity/fighting words. (And in California, thanks to the state Education Code, the administration probably can NOT censor it, although in the rest of the country, thanks to the asstacular _Hazelwood_ decision, it can.) If we’re trying to teach our kids to be good Americans, that includes the most precious American ideal, the right to free expression. Which, in turn, includes the right to spout gibberish and be laughed at. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/44 "2006-01-21T02:27:57Z")
and I have seen blind children puking in the gutter and I have seen honest men gutted by night and i have seen women who glow I bleed. I scream. I moan. I cry. I sweat. No, wait… I “glow” I spin. I reel. I fall. I rise. I throw. I fling. I hurl. (no, wait…) ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/45 "2006-01-21T03:56:55Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > As a spotty and angst-ridden teen > Hear me publically vent my young spleen > While we kill for oil > And poison the soil > My folks are, like, totally mean. Beauty. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/46 "2006-01-21T07:04:05Z")
Really, the administration couldn’t have done the punk a better favor. Now he imagines he’s dangerous and provocative. Nothing would have been more instructive to the young man than to be allowed to give the school his best, hist most political, his most ef-word laden spew, and find that his peers are not inspired to take up arms against the man or vote democrat or give money to greenpeace or whatever effect he expected to have. He’d read his poem and get his golf clap and that would have been that. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/47 "2006-01-21T09:51:17Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > That is seriously bad poetry. > > The creator of such crap is the Laureate? > Are there literate people at your HS? That wouldn’t have made it out of the rough draft stage at my HS, but then again, that was back in the day when kids actually had to produce quality work to get accolades. Did **vinnie** email the poem to you? If that’s how you get to read it, can I get a copy? Or can you post it here, **vinnie**? ---
**Author:** ![vinniepaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@vinniepaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vinniepaz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/48 "2006-01-21T19:22:36Z")
I haven;t showed anyone the poem yet. I’m a tad confused. I’ll type it up as soon as i can find a copy. A little update: I brought the matter up at my school representative meeting, and learned that nearly EVERYONE agreed that there shouldn’t be poetry at all. To clarify: this poem was going to be read at a SPORTS assembly. It contained, along with a number of controversial political statements, many obvious references to drug use on the part of the author. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/49 "2006-01-21T19:32:54Z")
I think it would be inappropriate for Vinnie to post the young man’s work here just so we can laugh at it. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/50 "2006-01-21T19:47:25Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#): > > I think it would be inappropriate for Vinnie to post the young man’s work here just so we can laugh at it. Inappropriate, perhaps. Entertaining, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/51 "2006-01-21T19:53:24Z")
> [@fluiddruid](#): > > Inappropriate, perhaps. Entertaining, certainly. Against copyright, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/52 "2006-01-21T20:04:50Z")
Hmm, quotations are allowed. Can’t we just hear the “best of”? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/53 "2006-01-21T21:25:06Z")
Doesn’t the fair use doctrine allow quotation of copyright material for critical analysis, educational purposes, stuff like that? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/54 "2006-01-21T21:33:23Z")
Yes, portions of the work can be excerpted, but the whole thing (which is how the discussion sounded) may not be. I should have explained better in the post I made, but I didn’t have any caffeine yet. Excuses, excuses. I am not insupport of excerpts being posted to this thread. Adult poet who’s making money from the work? Fine. Young person whose only crime is being pretentious? No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![vinniepaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b4bc9f/32.png) [@vinniepaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vinniepaz)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/55 "2006-01-22T08:05:59Z")
Yikes OK I didn’t intend to open up that can of worms. I won’t post the poem. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/56 "2006-01-22T17:00:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes, portions of the work can be excerpted, but the whole thing (which is how the discussion sounded) may not be. _May_ not be? So is it illegal or should it not be posted because you personally don’t think it would be a nice thing to do? Are you a copyright lawyer? ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/57 "2006-01-22T17:20:49Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > _May_ not be? So is it illegal or should it not be posted because you personally don’t think it would be a nice thing to do? Are you a copyright lawyer? First of all, whether or not we think it’s a nice thing to do, it **is** illegal. No, I’m not a copyright lawyer. The fact that the author of a work has sole authority over the reproduction and dissemination of that work is not some subtle point of copyright only a specialist would be able to comprehend – it’s the very meaning of copyright. It’s not even Copyright 101, it’s the prerequisite to taking Copyright 101. Second, it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s illegal, it’s not a nice thing to do. My original post on this topic wasn’t even about copyright, student privacy, online harassment, or anything else related to the law. It was just a personal, ethical position. To his credit, Vinnie has shown no intention of doing so, and has said that he won’t. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/58 "2006-01-22T17:29:04Z")
I haven’t stated an opinion about whether or not it should be posted as a matter of ethics. **jsgoddess** first said that it was “absolutely” illegal. Then she said that it “may” be. So what the fuck? It’s a fair question. It struck me as disingenuous that she gave one reason, which may not be true, for not posting it when her real reason was entirely different. So is it illegal or not? I’m not a lawyer either but everything I’ve ever read about copyright tells me that at the very least a portion of it could be posted under fair use. We have had a moderator say that it was fine. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/59 "2006-01-22T17:35:24Z")
**Walter** , you may want to read [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use) Wiki article about copyright and fair use. Here is the relevant quote: > [@](#): > > The practical effect of this law and the court decisions following it is that it is usually possible to quote from a copyrighted work in order to criticize or comment upon it, teach students about it, and possibly for other uses. ---
**Author:** ![Walter\_Windchill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2006, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768/60 "2006-01-22T17:39:14Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I haven’t stated an opinion about whether or not it should be posted as a matter of ethics. > > **jsgoddess** first said that it was “absolutely” illegal. Then she said that it “may” be. So what the fuck? It’s a fair question. It struck me as disingenuous that she gave one reason, which may not be true, for not posting it when her real reason was entirely different. > > So is it illegal or not? I’m not a lawyer either but everything I’ve ever read about copyright tells me that at the very least a portion of it could be posted under fair use. We have had a moderator say that it was fine. Yes, a portion of a copyright may be posted legally. My comments about copyright were only in regards to the complete work. I think it would be a risky an tenuous position, though, to claim that short excerpts were used in the fair use domain of “commentary and criticism,” when the author is an unpublished minor, and the tone of the thread is clearly not academic or scholarly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-these-obnoxious-pseudo-intellectual-poets/340768.md?page=4)