# I Pit This Gang Rapist and His Legal Team **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2008, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569 "2008-06-20T08:16:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/61 "2008-06-20T15:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] **Shirley,** you don’t know the law, you don’t know lawyering, you don’t like lawyers, you don’t think through your visceral reactions, and yet you want to be taken seriously. Good luck with that. [/QUOTE] You want to defend an attorney who will go to trial five minutes after meeting his client for the first time. And you want to talk about how ethical your profession is. And you want to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/62 "2008-06-20T15:50:17Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Isn’t there anything you wouldn’t say to try to get your client off? “She was asking for it, with those tight jeans - give a poor kid a break. She could get over it, if she wanted to - she’s malingering to get back at my client just because he raped her.” Is this how rape victims should be treated? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Well, one thing you can’t do is throw your hands up and say, “I give, I give, just throw the book at him.” In any case, he didn’t say any of those things. He said “she did not suffer significant physical injury,” which might well be true. So, yeah, I suppose there _is_ some middle ground. > [@](#): > > You want to defend an attorney who will go to trial five minutes after meeting his client for the first time. And you want to talk about how ethical your profession is. And you want to be taken seriously. Are you retarded? He just gave you a list of reasons why an attorney might _have_ to do that. The alternative would be for him/her to let the defendant represent himself; we all know how well _that_ usually works. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/63 "2008-06-20T15:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] You want to defend an attorney who will go to trial five minutes after meeting his client for the first time. And you want to talk about how ethical your profession is. And you want to be taken seriously. [/QUOTE] I believe my profession is ethical, overall, though of course there are exceptional individuals. More to the point - the specific example of “lack of ethics” cited in the OP, namely an argument over the serverity of a sentence, isn’t unethical. The OP is simply incorrect in this. There is nothing whatever unethical in pointing out that your client, though a rapist, isn’t ‘the worst offender with the worst offence’. That isn’t the same as excusing it or minimizing the horrific nature of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/64 "2008-06-20T15:55:40Z")
As an aside - this thread makes me seriously wonder how some people envisiage how a really perfect justice system would work. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/65 "2008-06-20T15:56:31Z")
[QUOTE=Malthus] As an aside - this thread makes me seriously wonder how some people envisiage how a really perfect justice system would work. [/QUOTE] Telepathy. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/66 "2008-06-20T15:56:40Z")
[QUOTE=Aangelica] Or maybe she _won’t_ be traumatized for life. There are any number of victims of violent sexual crimes, including gang rape, who get over it and live happy lives. Not personal to **Contra** , but it always chaps my ass something fierce when people blithely assume that a rape victim is damaged for life because of what happened to them. I’m not saying it’s easy, but people get over it - they put it behind them and go on with their lives. [/QUOTE] Claiming that she has come to no harm is bullshit, and as a human he should be ashamed. “Maybe she wasn’t” is **abso-fucking-lutely** no defense for \*asserting \*she wasn’t. > [@](#): > > I can tell you how the lawyers in that case were able to look themselves in the mirror each morning - or at least a possible explanation. _Everyone_ deserves the best representation they can get when faced with serious criminal charges - _everyone_. Not just guys with million-dollar bankrolls - _everyone_. So any lawyer defending a criminal matter (and, for the record, the phrase “defending a criminal matter” includes all the post-trial work as well - sentencing, appeals, etc. - it’s all part of the same process and an attorney is almost never going to be allowed to bail on a case after the trial but before sentencing) knows going in that the integrity of the system depends on their doing the best job they possibly can. In this country, it’s impressed with great force and vigor on law students that regardless of how they personally feel about their client and what he or she may have done, they must always, always do everything they can to represent their interests. Including making shit up? > [@](#): > > Do you really want defense attorneys deciding who to give their best effort to and who they can half-ass it with based on the defense attorney’s perception of guilt? You want defense attorneys thinking “You know what, I think this guy’s a dirtbag, so fuck it - I’ma just phone this one in.”? What if _your_ defense attorney decides _you’re_ a dirtbag? Criminal defense is very, very much a go big or go home prospect from the attorney’s side. Either you are prepared to go to the wall for every client, every time - or you find another area of law to work in. The system _depends_ on defense attorneys being as zealous as they can throughout the whole proceeding - it’s one of the checks in the system to keep prosecutors and police on the straight and narrow.\* Why don’t you ask someone who actually advocates that? Or do you prefer making shit up? I never said anything like that. > [@](#): > > I don’t think these attorneys should be ashamed - or if they should be ashamed as human beings, it shouldn’t be on this front. This isn’t to say there aren’t defense attorneys who personally feel like Hell about some of the things that a zealous defense requires them to do - and I’d venture to guess it’s a rare defense attorney indeed who doesn’t get the occasional twinge - but the same can be said of prosecutors as well. There’s nothing quite like criminal law to slap an attorney in the middle of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don’t scenario - but doing your best for your client is _not_ something about which to feel ashamed as a human being. One doesn’t have to like it, but it isn’t shameful, either. We have an ironic saying where I’m from. “Looks pretty good from my house!” How this guy can state for the record that she has come to no harm is beyond me. He has no way of knowing that. It seems to me that if fourteen men raped a woman for nearly an hour, the default assumption would be that she in fact was harmed by the experience. Or are you in the “lay back and enjoy it” crowd? I think I see why it doesn’t seem shameful to you. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/67 "2008-06-20T16:09:22Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] This thread is about another lawyer representing another defendant in another jurisdiction for another crime. Why should anyone bother? [/QUOTE] Are you for real? When I first posted it several lawyers jumped in to defend him. Now that I’ve shown their arguments are bullshit, you say you’re not going to bother. Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/68 "2008-06-20T16:12:01Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Telepathy. [/QUOTE] 😃 Though if we are going that route, I’d prefer having God himself (the Old Testament one) personally judging cases. Unless I’m on trial, in which case I opt for “trial by Jesus”. He forgives. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/69 "2008-06-20T16:12:19Z")
I have no problem with a lawyer providing a vigorous defense. That said, I also have no problem with the jury/judge/decision maker laughing at that vigorous defense. (Then again, I have no problem with jury nullification.) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/70 "2008-06-20T16:13:31Z")
Can we get some clarification here? The lawyer was not arguing that she wasn’t harmed in any way. If he did, he should be disbarred, not because it’s a lie, but because it’s idiotic. _Of course she was harmed. She was gang raped._ He’s arguing that she did not suffer lasting physical injury as a result, which might be an unconvincing argument for mitigation, but a perfectly true and acceptable argument to make. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/71 "2008-06-20T16:16:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you retarded? He just gave you a list of reasons why an attorney might have to do that. The alternative would be for him/her to let the defendant represent himself; we all know how well that usually works. None of which apply to the cases I am talking about. I think I see how it works now. If there is any possibility, no matter how remote, that an action might possibly, if looked at from the right angle, be ethical, then in attorney ethics it is ethical by default, because, hey, you never know, it could possibly be ethical in some bizarre circumstance. Even if those bizarre circumstances don’t apply to this case, the mere fact that you can imagine a scenario when it might be ethical makes it ok. So it’s ethical to defend a client you never met, because some other client, maybe, somewhere, may have FTAd five times. It’s ethical to to re-enter an appearance and do something that against your clients best interest, because, hey, it’s difficult to withdraw your appearance in the middle of sentencing, and in the middle of sentencing you have to do what the client says. I got it now. I am, as Happy Scrappy suggests, getting to know you better. Not sure that was such a good suggestion on his part. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/72 "2008-06-20T16:19:44Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Are you for real? When I first posted it several lawyers jumped in to defend him. Now that I’ve shown their arguments are bullshit, you say you’re not going to bother. Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me. [/QUOTE] No, _one_ lawyer - **Happy** - defended one specific aspect of his conduct. The rest of us have been talking about the OP. This isn’t the thread you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/73 "2008-06-20T16:24:09Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] No, _one_ lawyer - **Happy** - defended one specific aspect of his conduct. The rest of us have been talking about the OP. This isn’t the thread you’re looking for. [/QUOTE] You defended the attorney in my case in post 38. Aangelica defended him in post 40. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/74 "2008-06-20T16:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Can we get some clarification here? The lawyer was not arguing that she wasn’t harmed in any way. If he did, he should be disbarred, not because it’s a lie, but because it’s idiotic. _Of course she was harmed. She was gang raped._ He’s arguing that she did not suffer lasting physical injury as a result, which might be an unconvincing argument for mitigation, but a perfectly true and acceptable argument to make. [/QUOTE] Yup. I’ve said it a couple of times, but no-one it seems is listening. 😉 The notion that this is “unethical” is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/75 "2008-06-20T16:28:40Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] You defended the attorney in my case in post 38. Aangelica defended him in post 40. [/QUOTE] I suppose I did. I thought we were talking about the OP there, which I why I said “in the middle of the sentencing phase” etc. To be honest, I never read your first post (until my last one). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/76 "2008-06-20T16:33:29Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Well, one thing you can’t do is throw your hands up and say, “I give, I give, just throw the book at him.” [/quote] I didn’t advocate that. I was asking if there was anything you wouldn’t say to try to get your client off. > [@](#): > > In any case, he didn’t say any of those things. He said “she did not suffer significant physical injury,” which might well be true. It might be? What percentage of women who have been gang-raped for less than an hour suffer no physical damage? Bruises, vaginal tears, that kind of thing. I suspect he was not being entirely accurate here. Perhaps he meant to say “no permanent physical damage”. And I note he made no reference to the mental harm of being gang-raped. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/77 "2008-06-20T16:38:03Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t Call Me Shirley] Are you for real? When I first posted it several lawyers jumped in to defend him. Now that I’ve shown their arguments are bullshit, you say you’re not going to bother. Jedi mind tricks don’t work on me. [/QUOTE] Jedi mind tricks need something to work with. You’ve shown nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/78 "2008-06-20T16:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] How in the world can an hour long gang rape cause “no significant harm?” She’ll be traumatized for life. I imagine that harms her. It would me. Whether the lawyer was legally justified in spewing such bullshit is beyond my ability to judge; I will certainly bow to \*\*Bricker \*\*on that issue. But as a human being, he should be ashamed. [/QUOTE] If you’ll read the story – not just the headline – you’ll see that the lawyer qualified his statement as meaning “No significant _physical_ harm.” That’s (presumably) true, and it distinguishes the terrible tragedy of a rape from the even worse tragedy of a rape compounded by significant, lasting physical bodily damage. No one is sacrificing his humanity and saying rape isn’t significant harm. But he should point out, especially when seeking a modification of sentence, that we’re not talking about a case in which lasting physical bodily injury was a factor. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/79 "2008-06-20T16:40:26Z")
[QUOTE=pravnik] Can we get some clarification here? The lawyer was not arguing that she wasn’t harmed in any way. If he did, he should be disbarred, not because it’s a lie, but because it’s idiotic. _Of course she was harmed. She was gang raped._ He’s arguing that she did not suffer lasting physical injury as a result, which might be an unconvincing argument for mitigation, but a perfectly true and acceptable argument to make. [/QUOTE] This is what he said, as far as we know. “The Gosling Park incident appears to take place over less than one hour,” he told the court. “There was no significant harm caused to the complainant. No significant physical injury.” He seems to be saying that since it didn’t last an hour, no significant harm occurred. He then adds that no significant physical injury occurred. Your take is that he means “physical injury” when he says “harm,” but it is by no means the _only_ interpretation, or a \*necessary \*interpretation. Is being physically assaulted by a gang of men for 55 minutes insignificant, physically? Would you feel that way if it happened to you? Your loved one? It’s a bullshit statement. And to imply that a gang rape by fourteen men is somehow mitigated by the fact that it didn’t even last an hour is heartless. He should be ashamed. He should quit his job if doing it properly forces him to make such appalling claims. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569/80 "2008-06-20T16:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] It might be? What percentage of women who have been gang-raped for less than an hour suffer no physical damage? Bruises, vaginal tears, that kind of thing. I suspect he was not being entirely accurate here. Perhaps he meant to say “no permanent physical damage”. And I note he made no reference to the mental harm of being gang-raped. [/QUOTE] She was held at gunpoint, and thus probably didn’t struggle. So, no defensive wounds. Vaginal tearing might be present, but probably would be no worse than if she’d had consensual sex for an hour. Does your SO suffer significant physical injury during sex? Mine doesn’t, and I’m hung like a chubby whale ( 😃 ). This, of course, could vary wildly depending on lubrication. Presumably she suffered _some_ physical injury, but it is entirely likely and even probably that she didn’t suffer significant physical injury, which is what he said. You could define “significant physical injury” as cuts and bruises, but I think most people would define it as “requiring medical attention”. And you’re quite right; he didn’t refer to the mental implications of a gang rape, which I imagine are severe… but that _isn’t_ his job, it’s the job of the prosecution. I think one of the things we’re forgetting here is that this gang rapist and his cohorts are a bunch of evil fucks and ought to be sent away for a long, long time. That’s not in question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-this-gang-rapist-and-his-legal-team/453569.md?page=5)