# I pit those fighting to ban e-cigs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727 "2014-08-28T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/81 "2014-10-17T13:11:44Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Now that you mention it, it sounds like a portmanteau word combining “vacant” and “gaping.” Clever. What portmanteau would you construct using the terms “small” and “ugly”? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/82 "2014-10-17T13:42:06Z")
“Smug” of course. (I love word games) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/83 "2014-10-17T15:32:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What did the studies find? Well, it’s not just water vapor. Me, I don’t think I want to inhale heavy metals in public.[Source](http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/129/19/1972.full#sec-6). > [@](#): > > In their study of passive exposure to exhaled e-cigarette aerosol in a simulated café, **Schober et al39 found that concentrations of fine particles in the air increased from a median of 400 particles per 1 cm3 with people simply sitting in the room for 2 hours to medians of 49 000 to 88 000 particles per 1 cm3 (depending on the e-cigarette fluid used) after 2 hours of e-cigarette use in the same room** > > Both the e-liquid and the Poly-fil fibers that are used to absorb the e-liquid for heating and conversion to an aerosol come into contact with heating elements that contain heavy metals (tin, nickel, copper, lead, chromium). Williams et al58 found heavy metals in samples of e-cigarette liquids and aerosol. Tin, which appeared to originate from solder joints, was found as both particles and tin whiskers in the fluid and Poly-fil, and e-cigarette fluid containing tin was cytotoxic to human pulmonary fibroblasts.\*\* E-cigarette aerosol also contained other metals, including nickel, 2 to 100 times higher than found in Marlboro cigarette smoke. \*\*The nickel and chromium nanoparticles (\<100 nm) possibly originated from the heating element. It is likely that engineering features, including the nature of the battery, the heating temperature of the liquid, and the type of heating element and reservoir, will influence the nature, number, and size of particles produced. These metal nanoparticles can deposit into alveolar sacs in the lungs, potentially causing local respiratory toxicity and entering the bloodstream. > > In summary, the particle size distribution and number of particles delivered by e-cigarettes are similar to those of conventional cigarettes, with most particles in the ultrafine range (modes, ≈100–200 nm). Particle delivery appears to depend on the nicotine level in the e-cigarette fluid but not the presence of flavors. **Smokers exhale some of these particles, which exposes bystanders to “passive vaping.”** Like cigarettes, e-cigarette particles are small enough to reach deep into the lungs and cross into the systemic circulation. **At a minimum, these studies show that e-cigarette aerosol is not merely “water vapor” as is often claimed in the marketing for these products.** Tests on e-cigarettes show much lower levels of most toxicants, but not particles, than conventional cigarettes. (Cross-posted from another thread.) ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/84 "2014-10-17T15:33:44Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > This study only concludes that “vapor” is not water: > > _Although data are limited, it is clear that e-cigarette emissions are not merely “harmless water vapor,” as is frequently claimed, and can be a source of indoor air pollution. Smoke-free policies protect nonsmokers from exposure to toxins and encourage smoking cessation. One hundred percent smoke-free policies have larger effects on consumption and smoking prevalence._ > > _“can be a source of indoor air pollution”_ Good chili can have the same malicious effect. Does your chili include heavy metal particulates? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/85 "2014-10-17T16:16:12Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > Well, it’s not just water vapor. Absolutely correct. It’s not. And anyone who says so is lying. That said… > [@](#): > > Me, I don’t think I want to inhale heavy metals in public. You already do. How about some context? How does the heavy metal content of e-cigarette vapor compare to current atmospheric conditions? To automobile exhaust? To factor emissions? Interested in pursuing those? Or would you prefer to stick with scare tactics? . ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/86 "2014-10-17T16:38:48Z")
Thanks, Grumpybunny. I am surprised to learn that copper, tin, zinc and lead are heavy metals, though. Wikipedia says heavy metals are “any metal or metalloid of environmental concern”. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/87 "2014-10-17T17:25:14Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Thanks, Grumpybunny. > I am surprised to learn that copper, tin, zinc and lead are heavy metals, though. > Wikipedia says heavy metals are “any metal or metalloid of environmental concern”. You’re surprised lead is a heavy metal? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/88 "2014-10-17T17:50:24Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > You’re surprised lead is a heavy metal? I thought heavy metals were those that were radioactive. I’ve no idea how I acquired that idea. Ignorance fought! ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/89 "2014-10-17T18:24:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > How about some context? How does the heavy metal content of e-cigarette vapor compare to current atmospheric conditions? To automobile exhaust? To factor emissions? > > Interested in pursuing those? Or would you prefer to stick with scare tactics? > . I am aware that there are heavy metals in current air. I’m also aware that states, cities, and the EPA are trying to \*remove \*them to improve air quality. I would prefer that you do the work and demonstrate that e-cigs are safer than the air we breathe. You disagree. Go get the data. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/90 "2014-10-17T18:47:49Z")
I didn’t know that was the definition of “heavy metal” either. I thought the ones that were literally heavy were toxic because they were more difficult for your body to eliminate, and would build up and damage organs. Even the ones that you need nutritionally (literally heavy metals, or, those with mass, like iron and copper) have a very narrow window between what you need, and what is toxic. Albeit, now that I look, iron is not that much heavier than zinc. I guess usually large things are made from iron, and smaller things from zinc, so I think of iron as heavy, and zinc as light. Zinc and tin are a little more than 1/3 the mass of the heaviest metal, platinum, and a little more than 3 times the mass of the lightest metal, magnesium. On a list of elemental metals, they are about 2/5 of the way down (from lightest to heaviest), which is why I didn’t think of them as heavy, but I guess in terms of relative weight, they could be considered heavy. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/91 "2014-10-17T19:15:02Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I am aware that there are heavy metals in current air. I’m also aware that states, cities, and the EPA are trying to \*remove \*them to improve air quality. > > I would prefer that you do the work and demonstrate that e-cigs are safer than the air we breathe. You disagree. Go get the data. The problem with your source is it offers no context. It seems to imply _any_ amount is toxic. Do you have any idea what those numbers mean from the source you cited? I don’t. But just doing a quick Google search, here are some other common things that contain HMs: -Baby formula; -Baked goods and processed foods; -Deodorants; -Over-the-counter and prescription antacids; -Other pharmaceutical drugs as a binding agent; -Aluminum pots and pans; -Shampoo; and -Skin cream. Automobile seat covers; -Black rubber; -Burned motor oil; -Ceramics; -Cigarettes; -Evaporated milk; -Fertilizers; -Floor coverings; -Fungicides; -Furniture; -Refined wheat flour (white flour); -Silver polish; and -Soft drinks from vending machines with cadmium in the pipes. Canned food; -Cigarette smoke (first-hand or second-hand); -Colored, glossy newsprint; -Some ceramic dishes; -Lead paint in older homes; -Lead water pipes in older buildings; -Refined chocolate; and -Vehicle emissions (yes, even though lead gasoline was banned two decades ago in some countries). [Link](http://www.care2.com/greenliving/31-surprising-sources-of-toxic-heavy-metals.html?page=1) Are you against all these things too. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/92 "2014-10-17T19:18:01Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I am aware that there are heavy metals in current air. I’m also aware that states, cities, and the EPA are trying to \*remove \*them to improve air quality. > > I would prefer that you do the work and demonstrate that e-cigs are safer than the air we breathe. You disagree. Go get the data. I don’t disagree. I merely object to OMG HEAVY METALS without any sort of context at all. \*You \*raised the point, I’m asking \*you \*for the context. “Your vaporizer releases heavy metals into my air” is only a scare tactic until you can show how those emissions compare to extant environmental conditions. Seriously, I’m not gainsaying you. I just want to have an accurate idea of how the relative risks compare. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/93 "2014-10-17T19:36:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > There seemed to be some need to distance e-cigarettes from tobacco use. > You are correct, it is a silly sounding term. To me, it’s one letter away from being “rape”. That put me off immediately. What do we call those who smoke e-cigs? Vapists (rapists)? Vapers (bad spellers)? Lose/lose. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/94 "2014-10-17T19:40:39Z")
Damn, I’m going to have to quit eating baby food and newsprint! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/95 "2014-10-17T19:41:07Z")
Father vapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/96 "2014-10-17T19:45:21Z")
And they was mean, ugly, crime fighting guys. And the meanest one, the ugliest father raper of them all, came over and sat next to me on the Group W bench. “What were you arrested for, kid?” “Litterin’” And they all moved away from me on the bench. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/97 "2014-10-17T21:05:35Z")
till I said, “And creating a nuisance.” And they all came back, shook my hand, and we had a great time on the bench. 🙂 > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I thought heavy metals were those that were radioactive. I’ve no idea how I acquired that idea. Ooh, ooh, I know how! You were probably subconsciously associating them with [heavy water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water). (Which is also not radioactive in and of itself, but is generally associated with radioactivity.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/98 "2014-10-17T21:16:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > till I said, “And creating a nuisance.” > > And they all came back, shook my hand, and we had a great time on the bench. > > 🙂 > Ooh, ooh, I know how! You were probably subconsciously associating them with [heavy water](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water). (Which is also not radioactive in and of itself, but is generally associated with radioactivity.) Actually it was from a Poul Anderson novel, concerning an errant planetoid that was rich in heavy metals and radioactive materials. This will be Our Little Secret, ok? Dammit ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/99 "2014-10-17T21:19:09Z")
I am enormously unimpressed with the argument (used by smokers and now by vapids) that goes “well, there’s so much air pollution anyway, why won’t you let us add a little more?” For one thing, we’re talking about _indoor_ air in enclosed spaces without good air circulation (most prominently, aboard aircraft or other public transportation, but also in restaurants, stores etc.). Discomfort/annoyance/health impacts are magnified when people pollute enclosed spaces. Further, the people who fight pollution of such locations by smokers and vapids are often the same people who work for better overall air quality, by supporting effective regulation of industry and vehicles to minimize emissions. And those sources are respectively important for providing jobs and to allow people to get to work and do other essential activities. You’d be hard pressed to justify sucking up nicotine as an essential activity (unless you’re a nicotine addict). If “a little more pollution is OK” then maybe we should stop hassling people living in rural areas over their badly maintained septic tanks, since large animal-raising operations contribute much more to fecal contamination of water supplies. Or revoke illegal dumping laws, since such behavior is only a drop in the bucket when it comes to unsightly and dangerous pollution and those laws inconvenience the illegal dumpers. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/100 "2014-10-17T21:45:30Z")
I dunno. I’m not sure I really hear that argument put forward much, especially when it comes to indoor use. But I think in some respects it a response to a “not seeing the forest for the trees” mentality. The amount of air pollution produced by cigarettes is infinitesimal compared to auto exhaust or factory emissions; eliminating smoking will not make the overall environment markedly cleaner. Indoors, absolutely. But outdoors? I would have trouble taking seriously an argument to ban smoking in order to improve overall atmospheric quality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727.md?page=6)