# I pit those fighting to ban e-cigs. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2014, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727 "2014-08-28T05:25:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/101 "2014-10-17T22:17:59Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I am enormously unimpressed with the argument (used by smokers and now by vapids) that goes “well, there’s so much air pollution anyway, why won’t you let us add a little more?” > > For one thing, we’re talking about _indoor_ air in enclosed spaces without good air circulation (most prominently, aboard aircraft or other public transportation, but also in restaurants, stores etc.). Discomfort/annoyance/health impacts are magnified when people pollute enclosed spaces. > > Further, the people who fight pollution of such locations by smokers and vapids are often the same people who work for better overall air quality, by supporting effective regulation of industry and vehicles to minimize emissions. And those sources are respectively important for providing jobs and to allow people to get to work and do other essential activities. > You’d be hard pressed to justify sucking up nicotine as an essential activity (unless you’re a nicotine addict). > > If “a little more pollution is OK” then maybe we should stop hassling people living in rural areas over their badly maintained septic tanks, since large animal-raising operations contribute much more to fecal contamination of water supplies. Or revoke illegal dumping laws, since such behavior is only a drop in the bucket when it comes to unsightly and dangerous pollution and those laws inconvenience the illegal dumpers. :dubious: Well, it’s a little silly to be complaining about health concerns if second hand vape is less dangerous than say eating a salad with ranch dressing. I actually don’t mind vape free areas. But FFS, let’s not restrict them as heavily as we do cigarettes. Let’s give smokers an incentive to put down the cigs and go for vaping instead, and maybe save some lives in the process. Give restaurant and bar owners the choice to have vaping areas in their establishments. Might as well. Secondhand vape is a lot easier to contain than secondhand smoke is because it dissipates much quicker and is much heavier than smoke so all the vape gravitates the the floor instead of looming around in the air for hours. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/102 "2014-10-17T22:36:15Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Well, it’s a little silly to be complaining about health concerns if second hand vape is less dangerous than say eating a salad with ranch dressing. Well, that’s a foolish point seeing that ISIS is worse than vaping. 😕:eek::smack: > [@](#): > > Let’s give smokers an incentive to put down the cigs and go for vaping instead I’m all for them having an incentive to stop smoking and not be addicted to nicotine at all. Not dying prematurely is a pretty good incentive. And development of smoking cessation programs is what some cigarette tax money is directed towards (and more should be spent that way). At the same time, saving smokers’ lives does not and should not entail requiring non-smokers to get sick from secondhand chemicals. > [@](#): > > Secondhand vape is a lot easier to contain than secondhand smoke is because it dissipates much quicker and is much heavier than smoke so all the vape gravitates the the floor instead of looming around in the air for hours. You know this for a fact how? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/103 "2014-10-17T22:52:43Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > .You know this for a fact how? Common sense. Having done both I’ve noticed that the vape dissipates much quicker than smoke. Every vaper on the entire planet agrees with this. (Along with anybody who has a basic understanding of physics) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/104 "2014-10-17T23:27:51Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > At the same time, saving smokers’ lives does not and should not entail requiring non-smokers to get sick from secondhand chemicals. Oh my G-d! CHEMICALS! Actually, I believe they are elements. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/105 "2014-10-18T00:18:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Actually, I believe they are elements. 🙂 Nicotine, propylene glycol and the various other components of e-cigs including fragrance/flavors that get vented into the atmosphere are elements? Really? They’ll have to revise the periodic table. > [@Shakes](#): > > Every vaper on the entire planet agrees with this. Terrific! Now we don’t have to waste any time and money on actual studies. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/106 "2014-10-18T00:44:36Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > They’ll have to revise the periodic table.Terrific! Now we don’t have to waste any time and money on actual studies. :dubious: The nature of smoke is very different from vapor. We don’t need any studies for that, it’s already a known fact. Smoke adheres to everything like a sticky mess. It sticks to walls, it makes a mess of electronic equipment. Seriously, just ask any computer repair guy about what he or she thinks about repairing computer equipment of smokers. They’ll tell you it sucks because all the components are covered in a yellow sticky mess. That kind of shit doesn’t happen with vapers because second hand vape doesn’t produce that sort of residue. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/107 "2014-10-18T01:03:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nicotine, propylene glycol and the various other components of e-cigs including fragrance/flavors that get vented into the atmosphere are elements? Really? I thought you were speaking of the heavy metals. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/108 "2014-10-18T01:05:27Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > The nature of smoke is very different from vapor. We don’t need any studies for that, it’s already a known fact. Smoke adheres to everything like a sticky mess. It sticks to walls, it makes a mess of electronic equipment. Seriously, just ask any computer repair guy about what he or she thinks about repairing computer equipment of smokers. They’ll tell you it sucks because all the components are covered in a yellow sticky mess. That kind of shit doesn’t happen with vapers because second hand vape doesn’t produce that sort of residue. Many years ago, when keyboards were expensive and one could smoke in one’s office, I took a keyboard apart for repair and found an intact cigarette ash one and one half inches long. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/109 "2014-10-18T01:38:45Z")
Did the report say what devices they tested and for how long? It may have been ego-t batteries with clearomisers, since they mentioned wicks. I use one for three or four days. I wonder if the heavy metals are given off for the first few “puffs” or for the life of the clearomiser. If it were the solder joint deteriorating, I should think the solder joint would fail rather quickly. I also wonder what type of cheap solder the Chinese use, who make most of these. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/110 "2014-10-18T01:42:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I dunno. I’m not sure I really hear that argument put forward much, especially when it comes to indoor use. But I think in some respects it a response to a “not seeing the forest for the trees” mentality. I remember the “Don’t pollute” campaigns of the 1970s, when “don’t pollute” meant don’t throw food wrappers and other litter, soda cans, and such on the ground, find a trashcan, was met with “Why me?” why should I throw my trash away when the streets are already littered? If you were born before about 1976, you remember when there was a ton of paper trash everywhere, and stores had signs up that said “Trash cans inside for customers only.” Municipalities finally wised up and put transcans on corners, and the litter cleared up-- that, and a “Keep America Beautiful” campaign connected with the bicentennial. But anyway, people actually argued that what was one more candy bar wrapper or Coke can? The “I should be able to vape anywhere I want” has a really familiar ring to it. But that shouldn’t be surprising, since smokers never seem to get that butts are litter. There are actually signs around this city that say “No littering: $500 fine first offense. **THIS INCLUDES CIGARETTE BUTTS**.” > [@Shakes](#): > > I actually don’t mind vape free areas. But FFS, let’s not restrict them as heavily as we do cigarettes. Let’s give smokers an incentive to put down the cigs and go for vaping instead, and maybe save some lives in the process. Because the lesser damage to the health of smokers is more important than whatever the nicotine and allergy-inducing scents in the vapor might be doing to non-smokers whop have no choice in the matter. The idea that vapor is without any consequences is still speculation. Nicotine is a poison, and the other ingredients in the vapor may not be as sticky as smoke, but they may be a lot stickier than normal breath vapor, and so they may promote the exchange of bacteria and viruses; someone with a cold vaping near you may be more likely to infect you. I don’t _know_ that, but it’s just as fair a guess as the one that the stuff is completely and utterly harmless. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/111 "2014-10-18T03:31:22Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I don’t _know_ that, Then why the hell are you posting about it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/112 "2014-10-18T03:45:03Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The “I should be able to vape anywhere I want” has a really familiar ring to it. > > But that shouldn’t be surprising, since smokers never seem to get that butts are litter. Nicotine addiction seems to engender an unassailable sense of entitlement. Events of the past couple decades on the no-smoking front should have put a considerable dent in such attitudes, but diehards keep right on digging a deeper hole for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/113 "2014-10-18T04:04:06Z")
[QUOTE=RivkahChaya;17824934 Because the lesser damage to the health of smokers is more important than whatever the nicotine and allergy-inducing scents in the vapor might be doing to non-smokers whop have no choice in the matter. The idea that vapor is without any consequences is still speculation.\*\* Nicotine is a poison, and the other ingredients in the vapor may not be as sticky as smoke, but they may be a lot stickier than normal breath vapor, and so they may promote the exchange of bacteria and viruses; someone with a cold vaping near you may be more likely to infect you.\*\* I don’t _know_ that, but it’s just as fair a guess as the one that the stuff is completely and utterly harmless.[/QUOTE] Now you’re just making shit up. Should we really make policy based on such hair brained theories? How about we lean towards the science instead of these wild speculations? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/114 "2014-10-18T04:06:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nicotine addiction seems to engender an unassailable sense of entitlement. This just goes to prove that this has little to do with your health and more to do with your hatred towards smokers. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/115 "2014-10-18T05:07:09Z")
I use a vape pen, not one of the large cloud monster machines. I use plain, tobacco, or menthol flavored juice. It used to be that I could smoke a single cig outdoors hours before coming home, and just walking through the house without my wife getting within 5 feet of me she would go “ughh you smoked didn’t you? God I can smell it”. Now with a vape pen even with tobacco flavored juice I can be next to her vaping, or even blow the vapor in her face and ask her what she smells and you know what? She replies NOTHING, not a damn thing. She even took the vaporizer and took a drag herself(she has never smoked a cig in her life) and she said while it tasted like pepper she couldn’t detect an odor. So I am really raising my eyebrow at those that say the vapor smells so strong they are getting headaches etc. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/116 "2014-10-18T05:22:22Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Now you’re just making shit up. Should we really make policy based on such hair brained theories? **How about we lean towards the science instead of these wild speculations?** What science? There isn’t much, if any. That’s my whole problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/117 "2014-10-18T15:53:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nicotine addiction seems to engender an unassailable sense of entitlement. > > Events of the past couple decades on the no-smoking front should have put a considerable dent in such attitudes, but diehards keep right on digging a deeper hole for themselves. To be fair, there is a strong sense of entitlement on the anti-smoking side as well. Protecting children from second hand smoke at Applebees is fine, but when you can’t smoke at your local dive bar or pub where an overwhelming majority of the patrons smoked all because of busy body legislation there is something wrong with the law. Non smokers weren’t exactly dropping like flies of lung cancer anyway and considering anti smoking laws sprung up in smog ridden cities like LA and Chicago it further undermines the strength of the laws logic. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/118 "2014-10-18T16:40:47Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > To be fair, there is a strong sense of entitlement on the anti-smoking side as well. Protecting children from second hand smoke at Applebees is fine, but when you can’t smoke at your local dive bar or pub where an overwhelming majority of the patrons smoked all because of busy body legislation there is something wrong with the law. . Except for those of us who literally would have to leave places because of the haze of smoke. And these days, the overwhelming majority of the patrons _don’t_ smoke, so your majority-rules thinking is outdated. > [@](#): > > Non smokers weren’t exactly dropping like flies of lung cancer anyway… That’s like complaining about making places wheelchair-accessible. “Hey, I don’t see a line of people in wheelchairs who want to come in! It’s not a problem!” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2014, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/119 "2014-10-18T20:12:34Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > To be fair, there is a strong sense of entitlement on the anti-smoking side as well. Yes, how greedy it is to expect your neighbors on a plane or in a restaurant not to pollute everyone’s air in pursuit of their addictive habit. > [@](#): > > …but when you can’t smoke at your local dive bar or pub where an overwhelming majority of the patrons smoked all because of busy body legislation there is something wrong with the law. Even with allowing for the accuracy of that “overwhelming majority” claim and dismissing the rights of the “underwhelming” minority, there are workers in those establishments who should not be denied the right to a safe workplace.\* \*and before we hear yet again that those workers can just find a job elsewhere - no, they can’t always do that. And we do not excuse unsafe working conditions in any field of employment on the grounds that employees chose to work there. ---
**Author:** ![dva\_levyx\_yaytsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@dva\_levyx\_yaytsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dva_levyx_yaytsa)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2014, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727/120 "2014-10-22T03:17:40Z")
First, they came for cigarette smokers. I wasn’t a cigarette smoker, so I didn’t speak out. Then, they came for cigar smokers. I wasn’t a cigar smoker, so I didn’t speak out. Then, they came for tobacco chewers. I wasn’t a tobacco chewers, so I didn’t speak out. And they they came for vaper…And there was no one left to speak out for me… It’s funny seeing all the wailing and the teeth-gnashing from the vaper crowd. There’s absolutely nothing you can do to have vaping being treated any differently than “regular” smoking. Tomorrow, there might be a report, saying second-hand vaping (is there even such a thing?) is safer than breathing air in a medium-sized city. It doesn’t matter. Vaping will be restricted in the same manner as smoking. Period. That’s why you gotta admire NRA. They know that giving in even an inch of the ground, on any issue, will lead to further regulations, restrictions and prohibitions, before an inevitable ban. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-fighting-to-ban-e-cigs/696727.md?page=7)