# I pit those who say 'Stars and Bars' when referring to the 'Rebel Flag' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 30, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284 "2004-12-30T18:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/41 "2005-01-03T20:31:17Z")
> [@Loopus](#): > > Dictionaries are _de_scriptive, not _pro_scriptive. People call the Confederate battle flag the Stars and Bars, so the dictionaries list that definition. The OP and others in this thread admitted that people call it the Stars and Bars. In fact, that was the point of the rant. Thus, it should not be surprising to anybody that that definition is in the dictionary. Nor should it alter anyone’s opinion to find it there (though perhaps the fact that it is there should cause the dissenters to realize that it has so far entered into common usage that it is beyond correction). I’m not sure what _proscriptive_ means. Maybe it’s in one of your dictionaries? I have the last _prescriptive_ edition of the dictionary, to the best of my knowledge. They can have it when they pry it from my cold dead hands. I’m not sure that the phrases “beyond correction” and “descriptive dictionaries” have meaning when used together. “Beyond correction” implies that correction is possible. Do descriptive dictionaries provide what is correct, or what is current? ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/42 "2005-01-03T20:58:19Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > I’m not sure what _proscriptive_ means. Maybe it’s in one of your dictionaries? > > I have the last _prescriptive_ edition of the dictionary, to the best of my knowledge. They can have it when they pry it from my cold dead hands. > > I’m not sure that the phrases “beyond correction” and “descriptive dictionaries” have meaning when used together. “Beyond correction” implies that correction is possible. Do descriptive dictionaries provide what is correct, or what is current? Yeah, yeah. I spelled “prescriptive” wrong. Sue me. When it comes to language, what is current _is_ what is correct. However, what is current varies by community. Some communities differentiate between the Stars and Bars and the Southern Cross and others don’t. Perhaps if the usage has advanced far enough to make it into the dictionaries, the communities that differentiate ought to give up on “correcting” the ones that don’t. Perhaps before long the usage of those who don’t differentiate will take over, and then only pedants will notce all this. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/43 "2005-01-03T21:37:06Z")
Sometimes it’s best to let the language change on its own; sometimes not. I’m happy to let “hopefully” take on whatever meaning speakers intend for it. I’m delighted to see “they” used as a third person singular gender-neutral pronoun. I’m \*\*not \*\* OK with letting “literally” simply add emphasis to something as in these real life examples from network TV: “The Democrats literally torpedoed the bill.” “Some of these people are literally from Small Town, USA.” The problem with letting “literally” slip into misuse is that there is no word that can replace “literally” to mean that you are not using a figure of speach. That’s the problem with letting “Stars and Bars” mean “Confederate Battle Flag”. There is already a particular flag known as “the Stars and Bars”. What shall we call that one? Imagine trying to discuss cars with someone for whom Ford is the name they give to Chevrolet. If you want to discuss Civil War flags and you use the same name for two different flags, how will you know which one you’re talking about? It’s enough to make your head explode. Literally. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/44 "2005-01-03T22:19:37Z")
> [@bnorton](#): > > I’m happy to let “hopefully” take on whatever meaning speakers intend for it. Wait. What are people doing to “hopefully”? > [@bnorton](#): > > I’m delighted to see “they” used as a third person singular gender-neutral pronoun. Agreed, as long as it’s not used singularly when the gender is known. I actually had an argument with someone once who _insisted_ that this was correct: “Where did Cisco go?” “They went to the store [alone]” > [@bnorton](#): > > I’m \*\*not \*\* OK with letting “literally” simply add emphasis to something as in these real life examples from network TV: “The Democrats literally torpedoed the bill.” “Some of these people are literally from Small Town, USA.” The problem with letting “literally” slip into misuse is that there is no word that can replace “literally” to mean that you are not using a figure of speach. AGREED! My brother and sister both do this and it drives me batshit! What makes it worse is that my brother will use “literally” - correctly or incorrectly - about three times in one sentence! “Literally - literally! - she’s crazy. Literally!” Really? Literally? Once in 1960 for 20 minutes with a Death Ray? Speak with authority and confidence and the word _literally_ is rarely ever needed. I hope he never reads this :). > [@bnorton](#): > > That’s the problem with letting “Stars and Bars” mean “Confederate Battle Flag”. There is already a particular flag known as “the Stars and Bars”. What shall we call that one? Disagree. How 'bout Confederate National Flag? CSA Flag? Confederate Peace flag? There’s a million different things we could call it, and I still haven’t seen a cite that “Stars and Bars” was the _official_ name for it, anymore than Stars and Stripes is the official name for our flag. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/45 "2005-01-04T00:11:23Z")
[QUOTE=Loopus] > [@](#): > > Yeah, yeah. I spelled “prescriptive” wrong. Sue me. Oh, I don’t know. Maybe “proscriptive” is the right spelling. How can we be sure? > [@](#): > > When it comes to language, what is current _is_ what is correct. However, what is current varies by community. Some communities differentiate between the Stars and Bars and the Southern Cross and others don’t. Perhaps if the usage has advanced far enough to make it into the dictionaries, the communities that differentiate ought to give up on “correcting” the ones that don’t. Perhaps before long the usage of those who don’t differentiate will take over, and then only pedants will notce all this Or maybe the pendulum will swing in the other direction. Maybe if enough communities insist on the historical definition it will take hold again. If usage and only usage drives definition then nothing is ever correct, and correcting becomes impossible. How large does a community have to be for its meanings for words to gain legitimacy? What are we to do between publications of dictionaries? Why does inclusion in a dictionary convey currency that was not previously there? Why cannot **wiggumpuppy** and like thinkers claim with absolute authority that their definition should prevail? I mean words only mean what we say they mean, right? ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/46 "2005-01-04T01:00:44Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > If usage and only usage drives definition then nothing is ever correct, and correcting becomes impossible. Perhaps I should have put “correct” in quotation marks. “Correctness” in language _could_, if you wish, be seen as deriving from the “standard.” The standard comes from common usage which is perceived socially as prestigious. Linguistically, you could define “correctness” as that which aligns with the standard, if you really need a notion of correctness. Keep in mind that the standard changes over time along with the other dialects. There are also different standards in different regions. There is an American standard English, but there is also a Boston standard English and a Houston standard English. Not to mention the British standard, the Scottish standard, the Australian standard, etc. > [@](#): > > How large does a community have to be for its meanings for words to gain legitimacy? Fairly. Fairly large. Seriously, it depends on what you mean by legitimacy. Legitimacy all over the United States? There is some part of the country (Milwaukee I think) where the word “bubbler” means “water fountain.” That word has legitimacy in Milwaukee, but not most other places in the United States. A word has legitimacy within a group when most everyone in that group understands it. When you get past the most basic words, it’s hard to look at the United States as just one group, much less the whole English-speaking world. There’s not just one English. There’s a bunch of them. And the American dictionaries try to encompass all the American Englishes. > [@](#): > > What are we to do between publications of dictionaries? Huh? > [@](#): > > Why does inclusion in a dictionary convey currency that was not previously there? Usually, a definition is not added to the dictionary until it is _really_ current. For example, the word “d’oh” was only added to the OED a couple of years ago, even though I guarantee tons of people were using it before then. And, there are those who view the dictionary as prescriptive. “That’s not in the dictionary, so it’s not a word.” > [@](#): > > Why cannot **wiggumpuppy** and like thinkers claim with absolute authority that their definition should prevail? Obviously they’re not claiming anythin with absolute authority because they don’t have absolute authority. All they have is the usage of their group. They want everyone’s usage to agree with theirs because they perceive their English to be “correct.” As I previously argued, no one usage is really “correct.” As for standard English, there is no standard usage for “Stars and Bars” because discussion of it rarely comes up among speakers of standard English. Obviously this argument is futile and the arguers notion of “correctness” is wrong. But hey, people like to argue. > [@](#): > > I mean words only mean what we say they mean, right? Yeah. So? ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2005, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284/47 "2005-01-04T01:06:51Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Wait. What are people doing to “hopefully”? There are some pedants who insist that “hopefully” should only be used to mean “in a hopeful way,” since it’s the adverbial form of “hopeful.” For example, “Hopefully, I went to the bank to request a loan.” These days, it’s usually used to mean “I/we/they hope that” or “it is hoped that.” For example, “Hopefully it’ll stop raining.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-those-who-say-stars-and-bars-when-referring-to-the-rebel-flag/282284.md?page=2)