# I pit Vice President Joe Biden **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 28, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293 "2011-01-28T13:22:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/1 "2011-01-28T13:22:01Z")
Mr. Vice President, I have a tremendous amount of respect for your foreign affairs expertise, for your distinguished career in public service, and for your support of the President. Overall, I believe that you perform your duties well, and the Republic is lucky to have you. But good grief, sir - I’m amazed and appalled that you had this to say regarding the protests in Egypt: > [@](#): > > Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator. … And we’re encouraging the government to act responsibly and – and to try to engage in a discussion as to what the legitimate claims being made are, if they are, and try to work them out. From [Joe Biden says Egypt's Mubarak no dictator, he shouldn't step down... - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-Biden-says-Egypt-s-Mubarak-no-dictator-he-shouldn-t-step-down) . Denying that Mubarak is a dictator is simply absurd. The man’s held power for nearly three decades, rules by emergency decree, and jails and tortures the opposition - if Biden doesn’t think that’s a dictator, then I’m not sure he’d recognize one if a dictator marched into the White House wearing an “Ask Me About Oppressing the Masses!” t-shirt and singing “Dictatorial Times Are Here Again!” Utter rubbish. Of course, it could be that Biden was attempting an Urqhart denial - that “I wouldn’t call him a dictator” was his version of “You might say that, but I couldn’t possibly comment.” But, honesly, Biden’s not that subtle, and nor is our political discourse. In context, this really does look like a straightforward denial that Mubarak is a tyrant. Further, the suggestion that the protestors might not have legitimate demands is nuts. These people live under a thug. They don’t wish to be governed by a thug any more. What could be more in keeping with American values, or more legitimate? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/2 "2011-01-28T13:34:36Z")
Yeah, I can’t see the point of bringing up the “dictator” issue at all: if you’ve got to steer a delicate course about criticizing a foreign ally who’s receiving from well-earned opprobrium from his own people, why gratuitously offer your take on a nomenclature issue that isn’t going to make anybody happy? Typical Biden foot-in-mouthitude. > [@Mr. Excellent](#): > > Further, the suggestion that the protestors might not have legitimate demands is nuts. And I think that Biden recognized that in the part of his remarks quoted earlier in the article: > [@](#): > > “I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that – to be more responsive to some… of the needs of the people out there.” That’s acknowledging the (pretty obvious) fact that the protesters have some legitimate demands, ISTM. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/3 "2011-01-28T13:35:01Z")
Well, I agree, but it’s _exactly_ what I would expect, and not just from Biden. Every American administration back to Reagan has dealt with Mubarak. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/4 "2011-01-28T13:36:23Z")
I continue to maintain the opinion that VP Biden should not be allowed to speak in public ever. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/5 "2011-01-28T13:39:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I can’t see the point of bringing up the “dictator” issue at all: if you’ve got to steer a delicate course about criticizing a foreign ally who’s receiving from well-earned opprobrium from his own people, why gratuitously offer your take on a nomenclature issue that isn’t going to make anybody happy? Typical Biden foot-in-mouthitude. > And I think that Biden recognized that in the part of his remarks quoted earlier in the article: > > That’s acknowledging the (pretty obvious) fact that the protesters have some legitimate demands, ISTM. Eh - I read it more as Biden saying that the government should more more responsive in general, while qualifying that by adding that he’s uncertain whether the protestors in particular have legitimate concerns. Your mileage, of course, may vary. And there’s a point at which Biden’s foot-in-mouth disease becomes less an amusing quirk and more genuinely harmful. Say that, against the odds, the Egyptians manage to toss Mubarak. It will not be helpful for the new government to remember that one of the most powerful men in the Union seemed to deny that they had just overthrown a tyrant. Biden’s a very sharp guy, and we need him in government - but not everyone is suited to speak on sensitive issues in front of cameras. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/6 "2011-01-28T13:40:36Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I continue to maintain the opinion that VP Biden should not be allowed to speak in public ever. Hah! Simulpost. I wouldn’t go quite that far - I mean, the man’s Vice President. He can’t just be kept in a tower somewhere. But on serious, sensitive and timely issues of foreign affairs, I agree with you. Biden is best employed counseling the President, not speaking to the press. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/7 "2011-01-28T13:41:53Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Well, I agree, but it’s _exactly_ what I would expect, and not just from Biden. Every American administration back to Reagan has dealt with Mubarak. From necessity. There’s a difference between recognizing that a government is headed by a tyrant, but you still share a world and need to work with them, and pretending that the so-and-so isn’t a tyrant at all. This is new. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/8 "2011-01-28T13:44:02Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Hah! Simulpost. > > I wouldn’t go quite that far - I mean, the man’s Vice President. He can’t just be kept in a tower somewhere. But on serious, sensitive and timely issues of foreign affairs, I agree with you. Biden is best employed counseling the President, not speaking to the press. No tower, huh? Damn… Biden is like Prince Phillip - an important support figure for the ruler but should not be left unattended in public for too long. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/9 "2011-01-28T13:47:20Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > Say that, against the odds, the Egyptians manage to toss Mubarak. It will not be helpful for the new government to remember that one of the most powerful men in the Union seemed to deny that they had just overthrown a tyrant. Regardless of what comments Biden, or Obama, might or might not make at this point, I’m pretty sure the Egyptians would recall that the United States has been supporting Mubarak for years. > [@Abigail Hauslohner / Time](#): > > “Mubarak — you’re an American puppet,” the crowd chanted on Tuesday and Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/10 "2011-01-28T13:55:02Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Regardless of what comments Biden, or Obama, might or might not make at this point, I’m pretty sure the Egyptians would recall that the United States has been supporting Mubarak for years. True. There’s nothing to be done for that now, though. What we need to focus upon presently is preparing for the possible emergence of a democratic government in Egypt, and establishing good relations with the government. There are things we can do towards that end. The list of things we could do does not include denying basic facts of Egyptian political life. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/11 "2011-01-28T15:15:43Z")
They know he’s a bastard, but he’s the bastard they’ve poured a lot into, and he’s kinda on their side. It seems that American foreign policy never learns this life lesson. Just keep supporting any pro American bastard, no matter how tyrannical, like the Shah. As long as he’s on their side, they look the other way to the excesses. It only ever causes severe Anti American backlash, which seems totally contrary to their interests. They’ve done the same, again and again, sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/12 "2011-01-28T15:17:03Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > True. There’s nothing to be done for that now, though. What we need to focus upon presently is preparing for the possible emergence of a democratic government in Egypt, and establishing good relations with the government. There are things we can do towards that end. The list of things we could do does not include denying basic facts of Egyptian political life. From a practical standpoint, though, what happens if we do start calling him a dictator and sucking up to the anti-Mubarak people, and then he survives this? Our relationship with him then gets flushed down the toilet. And there’s probably not much we can do to make a democratic government in Egypt like us.. . .we’ve supported Mubarak for 30 years now, and the Egyptian people know it. We’ve already backed a horse, and it’s too late to change it now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/13 "2011-01-28T16:02:30Z")
> [@kimstu](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > “I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that – to be more responsive to some… of the needs of the people out there.” > > That’s acknowledging the (pretty obvious) fact that the protesters have some legitimate demands, ISTM. That’s the line that made me go 😕:dubious: Begin to move in the direction to be more responsive to some of the needs…??? Could he have hedged it any more? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/14 "2011-01-28T16:16:34Z")
He didn’t say Mubarak isn’t a dictator – he says he wouldn’t refer to him as a dictator. In diplomatic speak those are two entirely different things. If a reporter had asked him, “Is Mubarak a dictator”, he probably would have responded similarly – “At this juncture, name calling isn’t productive”. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/15 "2011-01-28T16:19:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > From a practical standpoint, though, what happens if we do start calling him a dictator and sucking up to the anti-Mubarak people, and then he survives this? Our relationship with him then gets flushed down the toilet. Meh. He still needs the money and it’s not like he can go to the Soviets. Assuming he stays in power, whatever jollies he needs, he can get from us recognizing whatever bogus “election” he ultimately holds. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/16 "2011-01-28T16:29:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I can’t see the point of bringing up the “dictator” issue at all: if you’ve got to steer a delicate course about criticizing a foreign ally who’s receiving from well-earned opprobrium from his own people, why gratuitously offer your take on a nomenclature issue that isn’t going to make anybody happy? Umm…because he was asked point blank if “he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator”. Short of throwing down a smokebomb and vanishing in the ensuing confusion, there wasn’t really anyway for him to avoid the issue. And then in response, he says no he wouldn’t call him that, because he’s an ally. Which is pretty much the truth, the US gov’t won’t call him a dictator, not because he isn’t one, but because he’s an ally. So I don’t think this really counts as a Biden gaff, he gave an awkward explanation because US policy v. Mubark is awkward. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/17 "2011-01-28T16:31:08Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > …If a reporter had asked him, “Is Mubarak a dictator”, he probably would have responded similarly – “At this juncture, name calling isn’t productive”. That’s exactly what Lehrer DID ask. As mentioned above, his response was just part of a [new way \*\*\*\*of dealing with Mubarak](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/middleeast/28diplo.html?_r=2&hp=&pagewanted=all&om_rid=NIXwrq&om_mid=_BNQsiXB8X5wvvA). [QUOTE=New York Times] But [the Wikileaks cables] also reveal that relations with Mr. Mubarak warmed up because President Obama played down the public “name and shame” approach of the Bush administration. A cable prepared for a visit by Gen. David H. Petraeus in 2009 said the United States, while blunt in private, now avoided “the public confrontations that had become routine over the past several years.” [/quote] I don’t see any reason to single out Biden with this. It’s the approach of the whole administration. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/18 "2011-01-28T16:41:48Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I don’t see any reason to single out Biden with this. It’s the approach of the whole administration. Agreed. Plus c’mon, it’s Biden. This is a gimme pit. Work harder. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/19 "2011-01-28T16:43:45Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Umm…because he was asked point blank if “he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator”. Short of throwing down a smokebomb and vanishing in the ensuing confusion, there wasn’t really anyway for him to avoid the issue. Nah, skilled political speakers are perfectly capable of responding to a question without actually answering it in so many words. Biden, much as I respect his other abilities, doesn’t have much of that particular skill. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293/20 "2011-01-28T16:44:40Z")
Mubarak might wind up winning. You don’t toss him over at the first whiff of an overthrow. The administration can not jump away from him that quickly. They have some degree of control over him since Egypt gets a lot of financial support from us. If his government was thrown over for a Muslim dominated one, we would not be pleased. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-vice-president-joe-biden/569293.md?page=2)