# I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811 "2016-10-06T23:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/242 "2016-10-10T20:33:29Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Whites are still the majority of Americans, and more so when Hispanics are counted as white (and more Hispanics are identifying as white), and thus have every right to say things about race. That’s a very interesting point to make. If they weren’t, would they _not_? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/243 "2016-10-10T21:00:23Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > But they didn’t actually fuck this guy up at all, did they? HE apologized and then it was done. In fact I imagine the offerandati have clung to this longer than he has. My point was that various people made the decision to call this guy out over his shirt, because of their own issue with it. Was it really worth causing this guy to make a tearful public apology over it? Hardly. Nobody _really_ gets that offended over stuff like that, unless they’re going around with that figurative chip on their shoulder about that sort of thing, and that’s what has people irritated about it. It wasn’t that offensive, he didn’t need to apologize, and it wouldn’t have even been an issue, except that social media now allows the offenderati to make a big deal out of things that would have otherwise been a tempest in a teapot, or more likely, just someone who griped about it to a friend or two the next day for about 5 seconds. Or, like I was saying, they know the potential power of social media on this sort of thing, and deliberately chose to call him out, fully aware of the possible loss of job, reputation, etc… all over some guy’s innocuous-in-the-grand-scheme shirt choice. That sort of scares me; it’s guilty by social media without a real trial. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/244 "2016-10-10T21:08:09Z")
> [@bump](#): > > My point was that various people made the decision to call this guy out over his shirt, because of their own issue with it. Was it really worth causing this guy to make a tearful public apology over it? Hardly. > > Nobody _really_ gets that offended over stuff like that, unless they’re going around with that figurative chip on their shoulder about that sort of thing, and that’s what has people irritated about it. It wasn’t that offensive, he didn’t need to apologize, and it wouldn’t have even been an issue, except that social media now allows the offenderati to make a big deal out of things that would have otherwise been a tempest in a teapot, or more likely, just someone who griped about it to a friend or two the next day for about 5 seconds. > > Or, like I was saying, they know the potential power of social media on this sort of thing, and deliberately chose to call him out, fully aware of the possible loss of job, reputation, etc… all over some guy’s innocuous-in-the-grand-scheme shirt choice. That sort of scares me; it’s guilty by social media without a real trial. A big event happens and some people write about it. Some people criticize a choice someone made for the event. That’s what happened. It wasn’t some orchestrated plan to hurt the guy – it was people writing their opinion. And good on Taylor for taking the criticism onboard – his reaction shows that he understood the criticism. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. This was a conversation, of sorts, with a positive outcome, and many of the critics praised Taylor after his heartfelt apology. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/245 "2016-10-10T22:03:10Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That’s a very interesting point to make. > > If they weren’t, would they _not_? It is estimated that by 2044 the United States as a whole will be majority minority. So I guess white folks will have to shut up then ;). We’re already there in CA. Well, y’know less they ( we ) decide to break out some jive-ass _plurality_ exception :p. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/246 "2016-10-10T22:22:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > It is estimated that by 2044 the United States as a whole will be majority minority. So I guess white folks will have to shut up then ;). We’re already there in CA. Well, y’know less they ( we ) decide to break out some jive-ass _plurality_ exception :p. Yet, you can count on one hand the number of non-white scientists/engineers working at any aerospace/defense office building. Glad I’ll be dead by then. Good luck with your future. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/247 "2016-10-10T22:32:15Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yet, you can count on one hand the number of non-white scientists/engineers working at any aerospace/defense office building. Glad I’ll be dead by then. > > Good luck with your future. In _California_? Are you fucking kidding? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/248 "2016-10-10T22:59:54Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yet, you can count on one hand the number of non-white scientists/engineers working at any aerospace/defense office building. Glad I’ll be dead by then. > > Good luck with your future. There are already more non-whites than can be counted on one hand in each of these staff photos at the JPL. (A few of the people are students, but if they are not working, now, they probably will.) [http://www.nasa.gov/centers/jpl/images/content/480727main\_starstudents-20100908-640a.jpg](http://www.nasa.gov/centers/jpl/images/content/480727main_starstudents-20100908-640a.jpg) [http://oco.jpl.nasa.gov/files/ocov2/JPLTeam-2011\_0318\_C474\_web.jpeg](http://oco.jpl.nasa.gov/files/ocov2/JPLTeam-2011_0318_C474_web.jpeg) [https://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/images/summerEmployees2013-500.jpg](https://www-robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/images/summerEmployees2013-500.jpg) I suspect that it would not be hard to find others at the centers in Houston, Cleveland, Huntsville, Cape Canaveral, and elsewhere. Your xenophobic projection is saddening. Are you sad that you will not live to see your prediction disproved? ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/249 "2016-10-10T23:26:13Z")
Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/250 "2016-10-10T23:30:02Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? It’s a ludicrous concern. It’s also racist if you think that non-white Americans are less “loyal-to-America” then white Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/251 "2016-10-10T23:36:07Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? Pretty much, yes. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/252 "2016-10-10T23:41:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, she didn’t say that, not exactly. She actually had a nuanced position – that investigators should assume that the person reporting a rape is being honest until the evidence suggests otherwise. You might disagree, but that sounds reasonable to me. > > But even if she’s saying exactly what you say she is, I said “virtually no one”, and you’ve found one person. So it’s still virtually no one, unless you have data that suggests that many or most liberals feel this way. So you’re arguing that its not common among progressives to autotrust proclaimed victims? [Hmmm](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-broaddrick_us_57fae930e4b0e655eab54dee) > [@](#): > > It’s not easy to square the arguments against believing Broaddrick with the _dominant progressive consensus_ on trusting victims. And I’ve always liked the Clintons in general precisely because they were moderate (and still are at heart), but fact is Hillary made a mistake by pandering to the growing part of the left that thinks we should autotrust anyone who claims to have been sexual assaulted, which is what that tweet was about, and in part how Trump was able to do what he did. Had it not been for Hillary and the Democrats pandering to this growing cohort, they could’ve continued to hammer away at Broaddrick’s low credibility for the last year. And there MUST have been a reason Hillary’s website [removed the idiot idea of autobelieving](http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-right-to-be-believed/). I don’t think she buys into it herself, or she wouldn’t have stayed with Bill. Again, Duke Lacrosse, Scottsboro Boys, Alexander Pantages, etc. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/253 "2016-10-11T00:11:19Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > So you’re arguing that its not common among progressives to autotrust proclaimed victims? [Hmmm](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-clinton-broaddrick_us_57fae930e4b0e655eab54dee) > And I’ve always liked the Clintons in general precisely because they were moderate (and still are at heart), but fact is Hillary made a mistake by pandering to the growing part of the left that thinks we should autotrust anyone who claims to have been sexual assaulted, which is what that tweet was about, and in part how Trump was able to do what he did. Had it not been for Hillary and the Democrats pandering to this growing cohort, they could’ve continued to hammer away at Broaddrick’s low credibility for the last year. > > And there MUST have been a reason Hillary’s website [removed the idiot idea of autobelieving](http://www.snopes.com/hillary-clinton-right-to-be-believed/). I don’t think she buys into it herself, or she wouldn’t have stayed with Bill. > > Again, Duke Lacrosse, Scottsboro Boys, Alexander Pantages, etc. We should, in general, trust women unless and until a reason is found not too. That means cops shouldn’t treat reporters of rape and assault as if they’re lying, without good evidence, and sometimes they do. Misogynistic bigots may not get this, but I think decent people do. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/254 "2016-10-11T00:21:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s a ludicrous concern. It’s also racist if you think that non-white Americans are less “loyal-to-America” then white Americans. Well, I hope you’re right. What percentage of Engineering graduates were Hispanic this year? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/255 "2016-10-11T01:24:03Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Well, I hope you’re right. > What percentage of Engineering graduates were Hispanic this year? Are you really trying to base the rate of graduation, which is not as available to marginalized minorities as a benchmark on if someone is “loyal-to-America” But if you want numbers, ~12% of engineering BS degrees were awarded to individuals whom self identified as hispanic. > **[Archive Goodbye | NCSES | NSF](https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/archive-goodbye.cfm?p=www%2Ensf%2Egov%2Fstatistics%2F2015%2Fnsf15321%2F%3F)** > > Leaving the NSF domain to view the pub archive But I don’t really understand your claim here or think that it is valid. White people tend to be financially better off and have better access to education which effects those rates. The fact that someone works for lower wages or has less access to education does not reduce their ability to be “loyal-to-America” no matter what the arbitrary box is that you try to put them in. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/256 "2016-10-11T02:46:46Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? Pretty much. It is the same xenophobic nonsense we saw when the the “real Americans” cried that the Irish were not going to be smart enough or moral enough or loyal enough to become good citizens in the 1840s through the 1880s and a bit beyond. It is the same xenophobic nonsense we saw when the the “real Americans” cried that the Italians and Eastern Europeans were not going to be smart enough or moral enough or loyal enough to become good citizens in the 1890s through the 1920s and a bit beyond. It is the same xenophobic nonsense we saw when the the “real Americans” cried that the Chinese and Japanese were not going to be smart enough or moral enough or loyal enough to become good citizens. Now we are aiming the same nonsense at people from South of the border. Every group suffers the same stupid accusations and every group has demonstrated that they come with the same desires and talents to become “loyal-to-America” citizens, despite the silly claims made about them. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/257 "2016-10-11T02:59:56Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? Well, if you weren’t going out of your way to hate them, attempt to limit their rights and all in all make them feel unwelcome in their own damned country (this one, if you don’t understand that), perhaps they’d be more loyal. Or maybe you’ll be surprised at how loyal to the US ideals they still are despite that. Their (and my) ideas of US ideals just doesn’t include your ideal of a White Christian USA. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/258 "2016-10-11T03:43:40Z")
Sorry, I assumed you people could follow along and put my last two posts together and realize that “loyal-to-America citizens” implied those qualified to work on classified projects. I was not questioning minorities’ patriotism. Why the constant attacks on Christianity? America wouldn’t exist without it… ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/259 "2016-10-11T04:04:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We should, in general, trust women unless and until a reason is found not too. That means cops shouldn’t treat reporters of rape and assault as if they’re lying, without good evidence, and sometimes they do. > > Misogynistic bigots may not get this, but I think decent people do. can you stop with the name calling? Does it make you feel powerful? One reason I never got into conservatism was because I didn’t like the name calling, with terms like “Godless,” “baby killer,” etc. Its sad to see “liberal-minded” people engage in the same kind of high horse name-calling. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/260 "2016-10-11T04:36:27Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > can you stop with the name calling? Does it make you feel powerful? Since this is the pit: 1. Insults are allowed here, but those you are complaining about are not insults but descriptions of what many Trump followers are doing. 2. **iiandyiiii** was not directing those proper descriptions to you. 3. **Unless** you are putting yourself in that column, that in context it looks like that is what you are doing so here. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > One reason I never got into conservatism was because I didn’t like the name calling, with terms like “Godless,” “baby killer,” etc. Its sad to see “liberal-minded” people engage in the same kind of high horse name-calling. Now a misogynist is “a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.” A bigot is “a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices” Hardly name calling when it is directed at Trump and several of his followers whom they continue to demonstrate those “qualities”. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/261 "2016-10-11T04:52:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > can you stop with the name calling? Does it make you feel powerful? > > One reason I never got into conservatism was because I didn’t like the name calling, with terms like “Godless,” “baby killer,” etc. Its sad to see “liberal-minded” people engage in the same kind of high horse name-calling. This, coming from the person who says they want to be able to get a free pass to call transpeople repulsive in public. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=14)