# I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811 "2016-10-06T23:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![eulalia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eulalia/32/457_2.png) [@eulalia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eulalia)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/262 "2016-10-11T05:00:26Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Sorry, I assumed you people could follow along and put my last two posts together and realize that “loyal-to-America citizens” implied those qualified to work on classified projects. > > I was not questioning minorities’ patriotism. > Why the constant attacks on Christianity? > America wouldn’t exist without it… So you’re saying that the only citizens that are loyal to America are those who can work on classified projects? That’s just flat-out ridiculous. If that isn’t what you meant, just what the hell are you getting at? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/263 "2016-10-11T10:14:45Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > can you stop with the name calling? Does it make you feel powerful? Stop with the bigotry and I’ll stop calling you out on it. Step 1 would be to recognize that you have said very bigoted things, and apologize for it. > [@](#): > > One reason I never got into conservatism was because I didn’t like the name calling, with terms like “Godless,” “baby killer,” etc. Its sad to see “liberal-minded” people engage in the same kind of high horse name-calling. Just calling things like I see it – no names, just descriptors. You have posted bigoted things – so I call you bigoted. You have posted cowardly and idiotic things, so I call you cowardly and idiotic. If you don’t want to be called such things, don’t post such things. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/264 "2016-10-11T12:15:57Z")
**DerekMichaels00** , let’s focus on the bigotry, since that’s by far your worst offense. If you apologize for your bigoted statements (the hateful things you’ve said about trans people and your extreme broad-brushing of Muslims), renounce them, and resolve not to be bigoted in the future, then I promise not to call you bigoted any more, as long as you stick to it. In fact, I won’t call you cowardly or idiotic or a liar or any other negative descriptor like that if you stop being bigoted. I won’t even call you a hypocrite for complaining about name-calling after all the repulsive things you’ve called Muslims and trans people. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/265 "2016-10-11T13:00:22Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Or maybe you’ll be surprised at how loyal to the US ideals they still are despite that. Their (and my) ideas of US ideals just doesn’t include your ideal of a White Christian USA. > [@inscrutable](#): > > Why the constant attacks on Christianity? > America wouldn’t exist without it… Why do you assume my statement is an attack on Christianity? Because the truth of it is that those who call themselves Conservative Christians are not actual Christians. Jesus himself commanded us to feed the poor, heal the sick and love our neighbors as ourselves. American Conservatives are the exact opposite of that philosophy in belief and practice. They are NOT Christians even if they use the name and claim to obey Christ - which they clearly do not do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/266 "2016-10-11T14:43:11Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yet, you can count on one hand the number of non-white scientists/engineers working at any aerospace/defense office building. Glad I’ll be dead by then. > > Good luck with your future. FYI, in 2012 [56.2%](https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2015/nsf15321/pdf/tab3.pdf) of doctoral degrees in science and engineering were awarded to non-whites. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/267 "2016-10-11T14:58:46Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Is it xenophobic to be concerned that there will not be enough loyal-to-America citizens to replace all the smart whites who retire? The eternal question: Xenophobic or Racist? The answer: Yes. (I work in the Texas Medical Center. Where a good number of our MD’s & Phd’s are non-white. Native born _and_ imported.) ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/268 "2016-10-11T16:36:03Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Why do you assume my statement is an attack on Christianity? > > Because the truth of it is that those who call themselves Conservative Christians are not actual Christians. Jesus himself commanded us to feed the poor, heal the sick and love our neighbors as ourselves. American Conservatives are the exact opposite of that philosophy in belief and practice. They are NOT Christians even if they use the name and claim to obey Christ - which they clearly do not do. QFT. I quote Stephen Colbert: > [@](#): > > If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn’t help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we’ve got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don’t want to do it. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/269 "2016-10-11T17:33:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Why do you assume my statement is an attack on Christianity? > > Because the truth of it is that those who call themselves Conservative Christians are not actual Christians. Jesus himself commanded us to feed the poor, heal the sick and love our neighbors as ourselves. American Conservatives are the exact opposite of that philosophy in belief and practice. They are NOT Christians even if they use the name and claim to obey Christ - which they clearly do not do. Yep, started believing the same crap back when I was a liberal, although found it puzzling that my Southern Baptist / Republican relatives in Florida volunteered much of their time to the huge charity/food bank sponsored by their church. A couple years of pondering this and other paradoxes in life led me to realize that I had fallen for the liberal mind-trap that the hypothetical replaces the actual. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/270 "2016-10-11T18:25:48Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yep, started believing the same crap back when I was a liberal, although found it puzzling that my Southern Baptist / Republican relatives in Florida volunteered much of their time to the huge charity/food bank sponsored by their church. A couple years of pondering this and other paradoxes in life led me to realize that I had fallen for the liberal mind-trap that the hypothetical replaces the actual. I routinely see trolls who claim they are or used-to-be liberals, spewing right-wing garbage; but I never see trolls who claim they are or used-to-be conservatives spewing left-wing garbage. I’m just throwing that out there to give you some ideas for your next sock. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/271 "2016-10-11T18:39:03Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yep, started believing the same crap back when I was a liberal, although found it puzzling that my Southern Baptist / Republican relatives in Florida volunteered much of their time to the huge charity/food bank sponsored by their church. A couple years of pondering this and other paradoxes in life led me to realize that I had fallen for the liberal mind-trap that the hypothetical replaces the actual. You have a fascinating monomania when it comes to picking a single example of something and then extrapolating good out of your side and bad out of the other side. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/272 "2016-10-11T18:49:08Z")
> [@inscrutable](#): > > Yep, started believing the same crap back when I was a liberal, although found it puzzling that my Southern Baptist / Republican relatives in Florida volunteered much of their time to the huge charity/food bank sponsored by their church. A couple years of pondering this and other paradoxes in life led me to realize that I had fallen for the liberal mind-trap that the hypothetical replaces the actual. Yeah, ain’t it crazy how non-Christians/liberals never volunteer for anything? It’s enough to make you vote for that humanitarian Trump! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/273 "2016-10-11T18:55:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > A big event happens and some people write about it. Some people criticize a choice someone made for the event. That’s what happened. It wasn’t some orchestrated plan to hurt the guy – it was people writing their opinion. And good on Taylor for taking the criticism onboard – his reaction shows that he understood the criticism. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. This was a conversation, of sorts, with a positive outcome, and many of the critics praised Taylor after his heartfelt apology. Fair enough, but the people having such strong opinions about something as innocuous as his hawaiian shirt are truly going around with the proverbial chip on their shoulder when it comes to this kind of stuff. Should we even humor this kind of behavior? I mean, it really didn’t hurt anyone, didn’t objectify women any more than thousands of other, more objectivizing things that are commonplace, and wasn’t done with malicious or other ill intent. If anything, the guy was trying to help his shirt-making friend out. But somehow, he ruined people’s enjoyment of the event because of his shirt?!? Or demeaned half the world’s population? Or prevented some poor girl from going into STEM fields because of his shirt? Tone down the hyperbole a little. Are they getting torqued out of shape because the dancers on “Dancing with the Stars” wear tight, sexy clothing? Are they upset that bookstores sell magazines like Esquire or Maxim with scantily clad women, many of whom are celebrities? Where’s that line between demeaning and not demeaning? Sexy vs. exploited? Without some sort of clear guideline, it’s totally at the whim of whatever angry person decides to get their undies in a twist about something. One woman’s sexy may be another woman’s demeaned… and the demeaned one may not be the one wearing hte tight clothing. This truly is a tempest in a teapot, except that this guy was basically compelled to apologize publicly when he didn’t do anything wrong, except irritate some people with chips on their shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/274 "2016-10-11T18:58:16Z")
I dunno, it could have been handled as simple as; “I wore this shirt today because it was made by my friend (insert name here) and she asked me to wear it. Do you have a question about the mission?” But when you’re not expecting the ambush, you can be caught off guard. Tempest in a tea pot not worth debating and spitting about days later. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/275 "2016-10-11T19:31:27Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Fair enough, but the people having such strong opinions about something as innocuous as his hawaiian shirt are truly going around with the proverbial chip on their shoulder when it comes to this kind of stuff. > > Should we even humor this kind of behavior? I mean, it really didn’t hurt anyone, didn’t objectify women any more than thousands of other, more objectivizing things that are commonplace, and wasn’t done with malicious or other ill intent. If anything, the guy was trying to help his shirt-making friend out. > > But somehow, he ruined people’s enjoyment of the event because of his shirt?!? Or demeaned half the world’s population? Or prevented some poor girl from going into STEM fields because of his shirt? Tone down the hyperbole a little. Are they getting torqued out of shape because the dancers on “Dancing with the Stars” wear tight, sexy clothing? Are they upset that bookstores sell magazines like Esquire or Maxim with scantily clad women, many of whom are celebrities? Where’s that line between demeaning and not demeaning? Sexy vs. exploited? > > Without some sort of clear guideline, it’s totally at the whim of whatever angry person decides to get their undies in a twist about something. One woman’s sexy may be another woman’s demeaned… and the demeaned one may not be the one wearing hte tight clothing. > > This truly is a tempest in a teapot, except that this guy was basically compelled to apologize publicly when he didn’t do anything wrong, except irritate some people with chips on their shoulders. Maybe it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, a little minor sexism on top of a great big ol’ pile of decades of sexism and misogyny. I think his shirt choice was an example of the kind of behavior that does, in a small way (but in a big way when all of it by every individual actor is added up) contribute to an unwelcome and even hostile environment for women in science. IMO, it’s entirely reasonable to criticize such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/276 "2016-10-11T20:32:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > IMO, it’s entirely reasonable to criticize such behavior. Fair enough, but I’d amend that to say “criticize such behavior _in proportion to the degree of actual offense._” That, to me is the real issue here. I’m not trying to say that the shirt wasn’t a little bit obnoxious- it was, and it isn’t something I’d personally wear. But it’s not really that big of a deal either- the degree of offense and level of vitriol was entirely disproportionate to the offense, and that’s the part that’s unfair. Maybe some mild admonishment or correction would have been appropriate, but the hateful screeching and anger that ensued was not appropriate in the least bit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/277 "2016-10-11T21:38:51Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Fair enough, but I’d amend that to say “criticize such behavior _in proportion to the degree of actual offense._” > > That, to me is the real issue here. I’m not trying to say that the shirt wasn’t a little bit obnoxious- it was, and it isn’t something I’d personally wear. > > But it’s not really that big of a deal either- the degree of offense and level of vitriol was entirely disproportionate to the offense, and that’s the part that’s unfair. Maybe some mild admonishment or correction would have been appropriate, but the hateful screeching and anger that ensued was not appropriate in the least bit. There may have been a bit of “hateful screeching” on Twitter or elsewhere, but most of the criticism I read was thoughtful and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/278 "2016-10-12T03:22:20Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > This, coming from the person who says they want to be able to get a free pass to call transpeople repulsive in public. as long as women can say bad things about short men (actually a natural phenomena) in public and not get called “bigoted,” people should be able to say whatever about trans-people (a Gender Studies construct) just the same. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, a little minor sexism on top of a great big ol’ pile of decades of sexism and misogyny. I think his shirt choice was an example of the kind of behavior that does, in a small way (but in a big way when all of it by every individual actor is added up) contribute to an unwelcome and even hostile environment for women in science. IMO, it’s entirely reasonable to criticize such behavior. you are an SJW. You’re defending the indefensible; discrediting and hurting someone’s career over something innocuous and asenine, solely because its the “Progressive Position ™.” ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/279 "2016-10-12T03:23:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Hardly name calling when it is directed at Trump and several of his followers whom they continue to demonstrate those “qualities”. In case you didn’t know, I’m not a follower of Trump. But that doesn’t mean The Left is right about everything, nor does that view make me a “conservative.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/280 "2016-10-12T03:59:44Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > as long as women can say bad things about short men (actually a natural phenomena) in public and not get called “bigoted,” people should be able to say whatever about trans-people (a Gender Studies construct) just the same. . . . 1. Does not follow logically. The two don’t have anything to do with each other. You can’t justify bad actions on the basis of other bad actions. 2. Factually incorrect: if anyone here on the SDMB (woman or man) said bad things about short men, they would be called on it and their bigotry named for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/281 "2016-10-12T04:26:05Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > as long as women can say bad things about short men (actually a natural phenomena) in public and not get called “bigoted,” people should be able to say whatever about trans-people (a Gender Studies construct) just the same. In defense of the one borderline-reasonable point you make here, let’s be perfectly clear on something: there’s nothing wrong with being a short guy, and when I kick you in your tiny, dwarven nads, it’s not because you’re short, it’s because mocking you for being short is what hurts you, and you deserve to be hurt for stupid, bigoted, extremely harmful bullshit like the assertion that gender dysphoria is a “Gender Studies construct”. I assume for many other people, it’s the same way. You stupid, short motherfucker - is your spine pressing up into your brain or something? For someone who complains _sooooo_ fucking much about being discriminated against for being short, I guarantee you haven’t seen in your lifetime the amount of bigotry and hatred that gets showered on trans people in… I wanna say a couple of days. Oh, you’re less attractive to women? Tell me the next time you get assaulted for using a public bathroom, you stupid douchebag. You deserve to stay single, not because women wouldn’t date a bizarrely misshapen dwarf like you (Stephen Hawking got a girlfriend; I think being 4’2’’ wouldn’t end a decent person’s shot at finding true love), but because you’re a disgusting bigot. > [@](#): > > you are an SJW. You’re defending the indefensible; discrediting and hurting someone’s career over something innocuous and asenine, solely because its the “Progressive Position ™.” Last I checked nobody was trying to discredit the guy’s career, they were just asking he not do… well, _that_. Nobody tried to get the guy fired. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=15)