# I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811 "2016-10-06T23:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/42 "2016-10-07T07:23:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No idea what the fuck you’re talking about here. Can someone translate this to non-idiot/non-bigoted English? There was an outcry over the new Disney movie **Moana** because some Polynesian people thought they were depicting their heroic demigod Maui as being fat. There is a negative stereotype of all Polynesians being fat. This seems to have mostly died down. Derek is ignoring all the actual issues they brought up, and acting like just having Maui in the film at all was the issue. And further than having non-white people was offensive now. So he alleges they are a rock in hard place, being unable to use an all white cast, and being unable to use non-whites. Of course, the _The Princess and the Frog_, Lilo and Stitch, and so on show that he’s wrong, but he’d probably pretend that was before “PC culture” existed. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/43 "2016-10-07T07:49:14Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Tell that to [Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Hunt#Controversy_over_lunchtime_toast_at_WCSJ_2015), who lost his real world job over a self effacing joke thanks to the sort of people and beheaviour that **Memnon** is referring to. > > I agree with **Septimus** that the responses to issues like this are denigrating, facile and dismissive and only help to radicalize positions; there is a problem with fundamentalist strains of the left that have a real impact in the real world because institutions are scared shitless of becoming a target for their public perception campaigns against whatever bee (real or imaginary) gets under some of those groups bonnet on any given day. > > This is a problem, and kneejerk dismissals only serve to exacerbate it. It’s not a problem at all. You’ve just described how activism works. What are they afraid of? Speech. You know, that thing we have a right to do. I have every right to make a campaign against someone who I think is awful. I have every right to tell you you are awful. I have every right to tell people (including your bosses) that you deserve to be fired. I have the right to boycott them if they don’t listen to me. Or tell everyone about how awful they are being. You are right now belittling liberals, characterizing their concerns as just bees under bonnets. And you have the right to do that. But god forbid the other side belittle someone for doing things they think are wrong. Tim Hunt’s situation is not as you described. He didn’t just make the statements and then wind up fired. He gave an apology that showed he did actually believe those things. He defended the idea of girls crying in labs and falling in love and how it disrupted science. He also was acting as an ambassador for science, and doing something like that which caused an international incident is bad PR for the whole group. That’s why he was encouraged to resign. What Tim Hunt learned was that what you say can have consequences. He said things that did not represent his job well, and then, when called to apologize, still hung on to part of those things. So he had to resign. There actually are people who wind up unfairly treated by the media and have bad consequences. People who jump to conclusions without all the facts. But what you describe is not that. And there is nothing wrong with a culture enforcing its mores. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/44 "2016-10-07T09:51:48Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s not a problem at all. You’ve just described how activism works. What are they afraid of? Speech. You know, that thing we have a right to do. I have every right to make a campaign against someone who I think is awful. I have every right to tell you you are awful. I have every right to tell people (including your bosses) that you deserve to be fired. I have the right to boycott them if they don’t listen to me. Or tell everyone about how awful they are being. > > You are right now belittling liberals, characterizing their concerns as just bees under bonnets. And you have the right to do that. But god forbid the other side belittle someone for doing things they think are wrong. > > Tim Hunt’s situation is not as you described. He didn’t just make the statements and then wind up fired. He gave an apology that showed he did actually believe those things. He defended the idea of girls crying in labs and falling in love and how it disrupted science. > > He also was acting as an ambassador for science, and doing something like that which caused an international incident is bad PR for the whole group. That’s why he was encouraged to resign. > > What Tim Hunt learned was that what you say can have consequences. He said things that did not represent his job well, and then, when called to apologize, still hung on to part of those things. So he had to resign. > > There actually are people who wind up unfairly treated by the media and have bad consequences. People who jump to conclusions without all the facts. But what you describe is not that. And there is nothing wrong with a culture enforcing its mores. The international incident was caused by a blatantly tendentious distortion of what the man said. The problem is, people like the journalist that created the incident can ruin a person’s life with the expectation that there will be no consequences against them as long as they portray themselves as champions for a good cause and any objection to their actions as being nothing short of evil; that, when people get to the point that their own sense of moral superiority is an acceptable substitute for ethical behaviour and they can get away with it, is a recipe for disaster. I suggest you go through [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rrUhYi3VhM) to see how that particular dumpster fire came to be. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/45 "2016-10-07T10:12:18Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > The international incident was caused by a blatantly tendentious distortion of what the man said. > The problem is, people like the journalist that created the incident can ruin a person’s life with the expectation that there will be no consequences against them as long as they portray themselves as champions for a good cause and any objection to their actions as being nothing short of evil; that, when people get to the point that their own sense of moral superiority is an acceptable substitute for ethical behaviour and they can get away with it, is a recipe for disaster. > > I suggest you go through [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rrUhYi3VhM) to see how that particular dumpster fire came to be. Ah yes, the I’m sure this look at a feminist issue is going to be completely fair and unfiltered coming from the man with such hits as “Feminist Frequency Debunked”, “The Sarkeesian Method”, “The Sarkeesian Conclusion”, “A Sarkeesian Film”, and “Rape, Dogs, and Feminism, Oh My”. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/46 "2016-10-07T10:13:44Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > This is a complete mischaracterization of what Tim Hunt said. Here are Hunt’s actual words. > > That’s not a self-deprecating joke. Hunt doesn’t actually believe that he’s a monster or even that he’s ever done anything wrong. The problem, as Hunt describes it, is women, and the solution he’s proposing is segregation. > > His “apology” was equally lame - “I’m very sorry if people took offence. I certainly did not mean to demean women, but rather be honest about my own shortcomings” and he reemphasized that women cry a lot when you criticize them and it’s bad for science. > > In the words of Imran Khan, from that wiki link - > It is not ok to make demeaning comments blaming women for causing problems in your lab and then offer a lameass “I was only joking; I’m sorry if anyone’s offended (and besides I was right about women crying a lot)” is deeply unprofessional. It’s not surprising in the least that his coworkers don’t want to go on working with him. He called himself a monster, but it’s not a self deprecating joke. OK ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/47 "2016-10-07T10:16:22Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Ah yes, the I’m sure this look at a feminist issue is going to be completely fair and unfiltered coming from the man with such hits as “Feminist Frequency Debunked”, “The Sarkeesian Method”, “The Sarkeesian Conclusion”, “A Sarkeesian Film”, and “Rape, Dogs, and Feminism, Oh My”. Is he wrong on what he says about the Tim Hunt affair? You see, this is the facile, demeaning stuff **Septimus** was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/48 "2016-10-07T11:17:34Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It is interesting to watch liberals squirm on the subject of Islam. On one hand they support feminism, gay rights, separation of church & state. But only when christians do it since liberalism is to a large degree a rejection of traditional western power structures. When ‘oppressed groups’ like racial or religious minorities have backwards social views, liberals do not know what to believe. Should we stand up for feminism, because that would involve standing up to Islam, etc. etc. Also before anyone gets mad, Islamic nations rank near the bottom on human, civil and political rights. I don’t see many liberals “squirming” about this, since liberals tend to be much less Manichean in outlook than their conservative brethren (and sistren 😉 ). Based on the multiple times this accusation has come up, the argument seems to go like this (in highly condensed form): Conservative: “Muslims are bad.” Liberal: “Muslims are not all intrinsically bad.” Conservative: “You like Muslims. Many Muslims do bad things. Therefore you are okay with these bad things when Muslims do them. You have opposed these bad things when non-Muslims do them. Therefore you are a hypocrite.” This approach tends to ignore the fact that it’s possible to believe that one’s religion does not make one intrinsically evil and therefore religious freedom is a good thing AND to oppose specific bad practices even if one’s religion is ostensibly the driving force behind those behaviors. So “liberals” can oppose religious bigotry against Muslims but simultaneously oppose the “backwards practices and beliefs” of many Muslims (as well as opposing the “backwards practices and beliefs” of many non-Muslims while supporting their right to practice their faith). There’s no inconsistency there. There is no obligation to support everything any Muslims do just because we object to the vast amount of bigoted bullshit that gets aimed at them (_cf_. the OP). Personally I’m all in favor of people of all faiths being allowed to worship freely\*. I also oppose homophobia, sexism, sectarianism and general murder, mayhem and persecution carried out in the name of the deity of one’s choice. These are not contradictory positions. It’s the well-worn principle about the right to swing one’s arm ending where the other man’s nose begins; one’s right to belief does not trump another person’s right not to be persecuted by that belief. Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Funnily enough there **is** a group that insists that supporting “religious freedom” requires people to also support the most distasteful beliefs and practices derived from that religion. Also, funnily enough, it’s not “liberals”. \*Except possibly Scientologists. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/49 "2016-10-07T12:25:42Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > He called himself a monster, but it’s not a self deprecating joke. > OK That’s…correct. I don’t think you understand the difference between irony and self-deprecation. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/50 "2016-10-07T13:00:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem with liberalism is conservatives. Actual liberalism in the real world is a movement holding sensible beliefs. But conservatives have created an imaginary liberalism and been able to present this imaginary liberalism as if it was the genuine article. Hillary Clinton, the Democratic nominee for President, is still repeating the “77 cents on the dollar for the same work” myth years after it was debunked. Is Hillary Clinton imaginary? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/51 "2016-10-07T13:10:10Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > You’ve missed the point of the criticism of that shirt. The point was - the dude had spent eleven years spearheading a project to broaden the intellectual horizons of mankind and he chose that exact moment of his achievement to wear shirt with pinup women all over. The point is - it wasn’t just _his_ moment. It was the moment for everyone on his team, including the women, and all the women who work in science, even though they constantly have to defend their capabilities to people who just think women are sex objects, and it was the moment of all of humankind - including the little girls and boys - in the audience, and the moment for all of the citizen - male and female - who funded his program. > > It was everybody’s moment - and he chose that moment to portray women as sex objects. He wore a shirt designed by a female friend. But hey, she doesn’t hate female sexuality and therefore doesn’t qualify as a\* real\* woman. > [@Merneith](#): > > Male scientists need to learn to think about how they address women, both verbally and non-verbally. There may have to be some tears shed. Sometimes lessons are painful. Correct; they need to regard women with fear. He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. He had a female friend, did something for her instead of treating her as threat, and was punished for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/52 "2016-10-07T13:51:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He wore a shirt designed by a female friend. But hey, she doesn’t hate female sexuality and therefore doesn’t qualify as a\* real\* woman. > > Correct; they need to regard women with fear. He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. He had a female friend, did something for her instead of treating her as threat, and was punished for it. Criticism isn’t punishment. People thought there were problems with his t-shirt and spoke up about it. Why is this a problem? Would you be complaining about the criticism if the t-shirt had had exaggerated and sexualized imagery of black women – all big butts and big lips? It’s not the end of the world to be criticized. He listened to the reasonable criticism and apologized. Good on him – that shows growth and personal responsibility. He was praised by the women who wrote that reasonable criticism for his heartfelt apology. This was a good outcome, not a bad one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/53 "2016-10-07T14:07:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not the end of the world to be criticized. He listened to the reasonable criticism and apologized. Good on him – that shows growth and personal responsibility. He was praised by the women who wrote that reasonable criticism for his heartfelt apology. This was a good outcome, not a bad one. No it wasn’t. His great accomplishment was tarnished, his reputation wrecked, and he was coerced into betraying a friend. It was about humiliation, trauma and submitting to bullying; not “growth and personal responsibility”. And you are deluding yourself if you think he had a “heartfelt apology”, instead of choking down rage and depression. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/54 "2016-10-07T14:11:26Z")
Speaking of “deluded”… > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He wore a shirt designed by a female friend. But hey, she doesn’t hate female sexuality and therefore doesn’t qualify as a\* real\* woman. > > Correct; they need to regard women with fear. He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. He had a female friend, did something for her instead of treating her as threat, and was punished for it. This is all completely delusional. No one is demanding that women be treated with “fear” or as if they are “enemies”. Quite the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/55 "2016-10-07T14:12:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it wasn’t. His great accomplishment was tarnished, his reputation wrecked, and he was coerced into betraying a friend. It was about humiliation, trauma and submitting to bullying; not “growth and personal responsibility”. And you are deluding yourself if you think he had a “heartfelt apology”, instead of choking down rage and depression. Bullshit. Men can be criticized. It’s not bullying, or humiliation, or traumatic – it’s criticism. It’s not betrayal of a friend, it’s not a reputation wrecked (quite the contrary, in fact – he comes out looking like a smart and compassionate guy and a good listener, and was justly praised for his apology by many of those who initially criticized his t-shirt choice). Men aren’t special snowflakes – sometimes we screw up. I hope women call me on it when they think I’ve screwed up. Conversations about these things are _good_, not bad. Matt Taylor is doing fine and is a better person for it. He still has his job and he still has a good reputation. Bullying is the death and rape threats those who criticized Taylor for his t-shirt choice received, not thoughtful and reasonable criticism. Again, I’ll ask you if you would say the same thing if it was sexualized and exaggerated imagery of black women that emphasized big butts and big lips. Would you be saying it’s wrong to criticize that? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/56 "2016-10-07T14:13:00Z")
> [@Memnon](#): > > Ten thousand more examples available on request. Okay, I’m requesting it. Show me your cites. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/57 "2016-10-07T14:13:35Z")
**Der Trihs** – you really seem like you have a personal problem with women, based on this and other conversations we’ve had. I think you need to look within yourself to see why you have such a problem with women who choose to speak up and criticize the actions of men they disapprove of. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with saying “that t-shirt is problematic because it portrays women in an objectified way”. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/58 "2016-10-07T14:13:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He wore a shirt designed by a female friend. Are you saying that women can’t design inappropriate shirts, or that this woman specifically is incapable of designing inappropriate shirts? I’m a man; am I therefore incapable of designing a shirt that other men might find inappropriate? If I made a shirt that a man found inappropriate, would a good defense be “but it was designed by a man?” > [@](#): > > Correct; they need to regard women with fear. He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. Ugh. I was going to comment on this, but I think it’s pretty clear that you’re a lost cause. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/59 "2016-10-07T14:16:39Z")
> [@Memnon](#): > > Social Justice Warrior _is_ an insult. That’s what differentiates it from Social Justice Campaigner or Social Justice Activist. The ‘Warrior’ is ironic. They’re called Social Justice Warriors because they’re _keyboard_ warriors. They never do anything but sit around and bitch. So…exactly what you’re doing now, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/60 "2016-10-07T14:18:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Bullshit. Men can be criticized. It’s not bullying, or humiliation, or traumatic – it’s criticism. It’s not betrayal of a friend, it’s not a reputation wrecked (quite the contrary, in fact – he comes out looking like a smart and compassionate guy and a good listener, and was justly praised for his apology by many of those who initially criticized his t-shirt choice). Oh please, he came out looking like a victim of bullying. And yes, he was forced into betraying his friend, since that was the shirt she made for him. When he apologized he was implicitly condemning her as well. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again, I’ll ask you if you would say the same thing if it was sexualized and exaggerated imagery of black women that emphasized big butts and big lips. Would you be saying it’s wrong to criticize that? Was it _made_ by a black woman for her friend? > [@Gyrate](#): > > No one is demanding that women be treated with “fear” or as if they are “enemies”. Yes, they are. These people are demanding that women be treated as paranoid, hyperaggressive paranoids who should be given neither trust, aid nor respect. That’s treating them as enemies even if they never use the word. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/61 "2016-10-07T14:22:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh please, he came out looking like a victim of bullying. And yes, he was forced into betraying his friend, since that was the shirt she made for him. When he apologized he was implicitly condemning her as well. Bullshit. And the gender of the t-shirt designer is irrelevant. Women can make things that other women think is misogynistic. Jews can make things that other Jews think is anti-Semitic. Black people can make things that other black people think is racist. The gender/race of the creator doesn’t invalidate criticism of what they create. Do you disagree with this? > [@](#): > > Was it _made_ by a black woman for her friend? It wouldn’t matter. If a Jew made a t-shirt with a bunch of swastikas and Nazi imagery for his friend, and then other Jews criticized the friend for wearing the shirt, _that criticism is still valid_. Do you disagree? Suppose it was a black woman who made such a t-shirt. Then suppose other black women wrote articles saying “that t-shirt diminishes and sexualizes black women and contributes to a hostile environment for black women”, and then the t-shirt wearer deeply apologized for wearing it. Why would that be a problem? Would you complain about that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=4)