# I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811 "2016-10-06T23:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/62 "2016-10-07T14:25:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes, they are. These people are demanding that women be treated as paranoid, hyperaggressive paranoids who should be given neither trust, aid nor respect. That’s treating them as enemies even if they never use the word. You have a real problem with women who speak out. This is a problem with _you_, not with them. Reasonable and thoughtful criticism is not any of this. I hope you’re a good dude. But these types of posts make me think you have the same sort of problem with women, likely due to your own personal experiences, as old white supremacist posters like **New Deal Democrat** had with black people. Personal experience of getting mugged turned **NDD** into a raging and terrified white supremacist who thought that black people were “savages” who spread their “savagery” anywhere they go. I think some personal experience has warped your view of women into something very dark and unfortunate. Please be a better person than **NDD** and try and look within yourself to change. You don’t have to feel this way about women if you don’t want to. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/63 "2016-10-07T14:38:12Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > 10 years ago, believing in abortion rights, gay rights, equal rights for non-majority racial and ethnic members, and keeping religion out of the public square was enough to make one a liberal here in America. You could also believe and fight for those things but not have to buy every bit of college professor post-colonialism and critical race dogma. > > Now, to be a real progressive, you have to believe that “white supremacy” is something more than the Klan’s ideas, that there can be a world without borders and that borders are inherently wrong and racist, that Christopher Columbus was Hitler, that Israel is evil, that saying anything bad about Muslimism is both bigoted AND racist (even tho Islam is not a race or ethnicity), that being skeptical of transgender ideology is as bad as being a homophobe, and so on. I’ve been told that because I am skeptical of transgenderism, I’m as morally bad as people who physically attack transgendered people. > > What has happened? Is it that the left needs new fights, since all the good fights they once had are already won? Have you tried looking into the positions you’re dismissing here, or at least moderate/non-strawman version of them? Take white supremacy, for example. Is it something you rejected in a knee-jerk fashion, or something you’ve read about? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/64 "2016-10-07T14:44:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Many on the left espouse extremely liberated sexual mores for America, while implicitly defending the extremely repressive mores of Arab countries. I’ve never seen one of these unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/65 "2016-10-07T15:00:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem with liberalism is conservatives. Actual liberalism in the real world is a movement holding sensible beliefs. But conservatives have created an imaginary liberalism and been able to present this imaginary liberalism as if it was the genuine article. Exactly right. And since the OP is a clueless far-right fuckwit, he is oblivious to the fact that he does that very thing himself – constantly. For instance, right in his OP: Now, to be a real progressive, you have to believe that “white supremacy” is something more than the Klan’s ideas, that there can be a world without borders and that borders are inherently wrong and racist, that Christopher Columbus was Hitler, that Israel is evil, that saying anything bad about Muslimism is both bigoted AND racist (even tho Islam is not a race or ethnicity), that being skeptical of transgender ideology is as bad as being a homophobe, and so on. I’ve been told that because I am skeptical of transgenderism, I’m as morally bad as people who physically attack transgendered people. I know quite a lot of progressives but I know no one at all who wants “a world without borders”, who thinks Columbus was Hitler, or that Israel is “evil”, or that there is some progressive creed that forbids “saying anything bad” about Muslims. These are fabricated delusions. And WTF is this crap about being “skeptical of transgenderism”? I am skeptical about ghosts, and skeptical about flying saucers. I am not “skeptical” about transgenderism because it exists. I think what the OP actually means is that he’s skeptical about the legitimacy of human rights, because he’s an ignorant bigot. The only thing in that list that contains an element of truth is the one about white supremacy, and the OP got that wrong, too. It goes far beyond just the KKK because there are undercurrents of white supremacy in much of far-right ideology, as in their whining about Mexicans, Muslims, immigration in general, the loss of “values” and “tradition”, and staunch opposition to any social programs that might make blacks even more uppity than they already are. The OP himself does a fine job of expressing those sentiments almost every time he bloviates, for example [as I noted here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19680116&postcount=432). > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > > > What has happened? > > You became an idiot, if you weren’t one already. Yep. A fact that is glaringly obvious in everything the OP posts. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/66 "2016-10-07T15:12:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He wore a shirt designed by a female friend. But hey, she doesn’t hate female sexuality and therefore doesn’t qualify as a\* real\* woman. > > Correct; they need to regard women with fear. He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. He had a female friend, did something for her instead of treating her as threat, and was punished for it. You are such a sad pathetic little thing. I would laugh at you but I think that might be too much of a dramatic thing for you and you would die of your own Triggerisms. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/67 "2016-10-07T15:21:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > That’s…correct. I don’t think you understand the difference between irony and self-deprecation. English is not my first language, so let me check… First hit on searching “Self deprecating humor” [A self-deprecating person knows her own weaknesses and shortcomings\* and isn’t afraid to point them out, often in a humorous way.](https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/self-deprecating) Let’s see Hunt’s words at the time: \* “It’s strange that such a chauvinist monster like me has been asked to speak to women scientists. Let me tell you about my trouble with girls. Three things happen when they are in the lab: you fall in love with them, they fall in love with you, and when you criticise them they cry. Perhaps we should make separate labs for boys and girls? Now, seriously, I’m impressed by the economic development of Korea. And women scientists played, without doubt an important role in it. Science needs women, and you should do science, despite all the obstacles, and despite monsters like me. So, congratulations, everybody, and I hope – I hope – I hope – I really do hope there is nothing holding you back, especially not monsters like me.”\* He later said: _“I’m very sorry if people took offence. I certainly did not mean to demean women, but rather be honest about my own shortcomings.”_ Is it my language skills or am I taking crazy pills?, because if he was using his own shortcomings as the butt of a joke that’s the very definition of self deprecating humor\*, is it not? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/68 "2016-10-07T15:23:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He made the mistake of treating women as if they weren’t enemies, the way his critics demand that men treat women and that women treat each other. No, he made the mistake of treating complaints about his shirt seriously. This kind of thing doesn’t need apologies; it needs derision, scorn, and the observation that the only reason we could land on a comet is because we have people who major in engineering and astrophysics instead of women’s studies and Third World lesbian poetry. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > These people are demanding that women be treated as paranoid, hyperaggressive paranoids who should be given neither trust, aid nor respect. Well, to be fair, the women who bitched about his shirt _are_ hyper-aggressive paranoids who can’t stand to talk about anything besides their own (largely imaginary) grievances. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/69 "2016-10-07T15:27:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, he made the mistake of treating complaints about his shirt seriously. This kind of thing doesn’t need apologies; it needs derision, scorn, and the observation that the only reason we could land on a comet is because we have people who major in engineering and astrophysics instead of women’s studies and Third World lesbian poetry. We’d do even better in space exploration if women felt completely welcome in the field. Wearing objectifying t-shirts might contribute, in a very small way, to a hostile environment. If that dissuades, even a little, some women from studying or trying to work in that field, then the science suffers. > [@](#): > > Well, to be fair, the women who bitched about his shirt _are_ hyper-aggressive paranoids who can’t stand to talk about anything besides their own (largely imaginary) grievances. I know! How dare those women write thoughtful and reasonable articles about things they think are inappropriate and contribute to hostility? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/70 "2016-10-07T15:41:10Z")
Personally, while I thought it was a spectacularly tacky shirt I didn’t think it warranted more than mild derision. But then again, it wasn’t my ox being gored. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/71 "2016-10-07T15:48:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’d do even better in space exploration if women felt completely welcome in the field. That’s kind of the problem - the kind of person who majors in Womyn’s Studies adds nothing at NASA. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/72 "2016-10-07T15:56:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s kind of the problem - the kind of person who majors in Womyn’s Studies adds nothing at NASA. > > Regards, > Shodan So a woman can either be offended by objectification, or be a scientist, but not both? How strange. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/73 "2016-10-07T16:01:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > So a woman can either be offended by objectification, or be a scientist, but not both? How strange. Not really-When you have great difficulty yourself handling more than one task at a time, you tend to think that others are just like you. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/74 "2016-10-07T16:07:55Z")
I bet that if I drew a Venn diagram of 1) people who are outraged that some women didn’t like Tim Hunt’s shirt, and 2) people who complain about how young black men dress like thugs, I bet those two circles would pretty much overlap. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/75 "2016-10-07T16:10:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’d do even better in space exploration if women felt completely welcome in the field. Wearing objectifying t-shirts might contribute, in a very small way, to a hostile environment. If that dissuades, even a little, some women from studying or trying to work in that field, then the science suffers. Don’t you think science suffers when a Nobel laureate’s carrier is ruined over a deliberately decontextualized quote? I, for one, think an environment were anyone (men or women) has to live in fear that something that they say may be _interpreted_ to be offensive enough to have them sacked is quite hostile and unwelcoming. Specially since there’s no shortage of people with a chip on their shoulders just chomping at the bit to interpret anything in the most chip destabilizing way and a social media court of public opinion ready to go from zero to warp nine at the merest tickle of their moral panic trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/76 "2016-10-07T16:18:38Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > I, for one, think an environment were anyone (men or women) has to live in fear that something that they say may be _interpreted_ to be offensive enough to have them sacked is quite hostile and unwelcoming. > Specially since there’s no shortage of people with a chip on their shoulders just chomping at the bit to interpret anything in the most chip destabilizing way and a social media court of public opinion ready to go from zero to warp nine at the merest tickle of their moral panic trigger. I’m careful about what I say and do in every environment I’m in, and I’ve done that for almost all of my life. I don’t curse in front of my mother, I don’t tell my coworkers they’re assholes, and I don’t wear speedos to the office. Everyone does this, all the time, and have done so for the entire span of humanity. It’s not new, it’s not surprising, and it’s definitely not unique to liberals. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/77 "2016-10-07T16:43:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it wasn’t. His great accomplishment was tarnished, his reputation wrecked, and he was coerced into betraying a friend. It was about humiliation, trauma and submitting to bullying; not “growth and personal responsibility”. And you are deluding yourself if you think he had a “heartfelt apology”, instead of choking down rage and depression. Sometimes the better part of being a friend is trying to steer them away from making mistakes. What he should have done was told the shirt designer, “I would love to help your business, but that shirt is inappropriate for an interview about such a major accomplishment.” If his great accomplishment was tarnished and his reputation wrecked, it was entirely his own fault for having such bad taste in shirts. Sometimes people deserve humiliation and trauma when it is the result of bad, but extremely preventable actions. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/78 "2016-10-07T17:02:57Z")
I have terrible taste in shirts, and I do own several Aloha shirts with pin-up girls printed on them. They are appropriate for picnics or other beer-drinking occasions. I would never wear one of those shirts to a meeting or if I were to be interviewed on camera about an accomplishment. That was a lapse of judgement on his part and he has been properly called out for it. Please show the class where this has affected his career. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/79 "2016-10-07T17:11:13Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Is it my language skills or am I taking crazy pills?, because if he was using his own shortcomings as the butt of a joke that’s the very definition of self deprecating humor\*, is it not? It may just be that we disagree about his intended meaning. I don’t think he actually believes he is a chauvinist monster. What he means is literally the opposite of what he said–i.e., that he is not, in fact, a chauvinist monster. That’s the definition of irony: the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite. That’s not self-deprecation, which would be in play if he really thought he was a chauvinist. I see no evidence for that in his non-apology “I"m sorry if you were offended.” That’s the sort of thing people say when they believe they’ve done nothing wrong–or at least not done the thing you think they’ve done wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/80 "2016-10-07T17:13:36Z")
I just want to point out how far the goal posts have moved in this thread. It started out being about Liberal ideas in general (although an obviously straw man version there of), but now seems to have boiled down to a discussion of the appropriateness of internet mobs, which has fuck all to do with Liberalism. I’m a Liberal and I agree that Matt Taylor shouldn’t have worn that tee shirt and that Tim Hunt shouldn’t have said what he said, but I am extremely uncomfortable with how these events played out. But its not only the left that hounds people to the point of tears on the internet. See for example what happened to Quinn in gamer gate and Leslie Jones. If there are a pit thread about the bemoaning new scarlet letter, lynch mob, phenomenon that has opened up as a result of social media, I would be at the front leading the charge, and perhaps this is evolving into that thread, but such a thread should not be titled “I pit were liberalism has gone”. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/81 "2016-10-07T17:20:00Z")
But it’s kinda gonna be a one-off, so I’m just gonna roll it into this thread, okay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=5)