# I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 6, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811 "2016-10-06T23:58:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/162 "2016-10-08T13:36:52Z")
The OP is a dumbass, I admit, but it surely cannot be denied that there are extremist liberals out there, that their numbers have grown hugely over the last decade and that their influence over mainstream liberalism has increased in proportion. As someone on the Right I confess there are many right-wingers I find totally embarassing and a detriment to the party they claim to represent (yes, Donald Trump, I’m looking at you, you moron. Fuck you for costing the Repubs the Presidency this time round - as you certainly will - which was there for the taking had there been a sane candidate). Their number too has increased greatly over recent years Are there really no moderate liberal dopers here who are embarassed sometimes by the extremist idiots on their own side? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/163 "2016-10-08T13:47:17Z")
You see a lot more of the dumbasses on the Internet due to the nature of the medium. The numbers on either end are much smaller. Nevertheless, the Democrats easily nominated a sane centrist, while the Republicans easily nominated Trump. What do you make of \*those \*numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/164 "2016-10-08T13:50:53Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Are there really no moderate liberal dopers here who are embarassed sometimes by the extremist idiots on their own side? Sure. But that’s a long step from saying “their numbers have grown hugely over the last decade and that their influence of mainstream liberalism has increased in proportion”. Or that that “cannot be denied”. I don’t know that the same thing could be said for extreme right-wingers, either, to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/165 "2016-10-08T16:46:12Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The OP is a dumbass, I admit, but it surely cannot be denied that there are extremist liberals out there, that their numbers have grown hugely over the last decade and that their influence over mainstream liberalism has increased in proportion. > > As someone on the Right I confess there are many right-wingers I find totally embarassing and a detriment to the party they claim to represent (yes, Donald Trump, I’m looking at you, you moron. Fuck you for costing the Repubs the Presidency this time round - as you certainly will - which was there for the taking had there been a sane candidate). Their number too has increased greatly over recent years > > Are there really no moderate liberal dopers here who are embarassed sometimes by the extremist idiots on their own side? _raises hand_ There are plenty of people out there on the left who I really, really want to smack. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You see a lot more of the dumbasses on the Internet due to the nature of the medium. The numbers on either end are much smaller. Exactly. The freaks always tend to stand out more online. The normal, sane people generally say “fuck this shit” because it’s not worth getting into internet pissing matches with them. > [@](#): > > Nevertheless, the Democrats easily nominated a sane centrist, while the Republicans easily nominated Trump. What do you make of \*those \*numbers? Very interesting point. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/166 "2016-10-08T17:30:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You see a lot more of the dumbasses on the Internet due to the nature of the medium. The numbers on either end are much smaller. > > Nevertheless, the Democrats easily nominated a sane centrist, while the Republicans easily nominated Trump. What do you make of \*those \*numbers? Quite honestly I despair of them and if the Republican party moves much further to the lunatic right I’ll completely wash my hands of it. My hope is that Trump will lose so badly that the Repubs will get their groove back although there are so many loonies in the party these days that I have to wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/167 "2016-10-08T17:36:40Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > . . . there’s no way a modern business would pass up the chance to save 20% on its wages, if only they could get away with hiring women because they can legally pay them less. . . . Yes, bigotry is that important to some people. Also, when women become predominant in a profession, the wages go down. Companies do discriminate in that fashion. They do exactly what you say: hire women, and give them less money. That’s why women earn less for the same work in America. Companies are doing exactly as you’re advising. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/168 "2016-10-08T17:49:13Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I don’t live in America. > > And you’re still avoiding my earlier point, namely that there’s no way a modern business would pass up the chance to save 20% on its wages, if only they could get away with hiring women because they can legally pay them less. > > The western world doesn’t work like that. Sexism isn’t about hate, it is about condescension. If you are a sexist manager/ceo/whatever, you don’t see a woman as equal to a man. The reason you only pay them 80% of what you pay a man is because they are only worth 60% of what a man is. Taking that perspective into account, does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/169 "2016-10-08T18:05:06Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Sexism isn’t about hate, it is about condescension. If you are a sexist manager/ceo/whatever, you don’t see a woman as equal to a man. The reason you only pay them 80% of what you pay a man is because they are only worth 60% of what a man is. > > Taking that perspective into account, does that answer your question? That still doesn’t make it a reality though. The 70 something cents on a dollar myth for the same work is just a flat-out lie and should be refuted by all people that want to maintain their credibility. It is just a meme that caught on like “we only use 10% of our brains” and should not be repeated because it simply isn’t true. How could it be true? Do male elementary school teachers make much more than their female counterparts with the same credentials and seniority? How about military officers? Of course not because the pay scales are well defined and do not differentiate between males and females. The same thing applies to corporate environments. The only way you can get that math to work at all is to just throw everyone into one large bucket that does not differentiate between mothers working as few hours as possible and many men that have to take higher paying jobs with long hours to support their family. That is a brain-dead way of doing such an analysis and does not reflect reality because they are not the primary beneficiaries of the money anyway. [http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/170 "2016-10-08T18:09:00Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Quite honestly I despair of them and if the Republican party moves much further to the lunatic right I’ll completely wash my hands of it. My hope is that Trump will lose so badly that the Repubs will get their groove back although there are so many loonies in the party these days that I have to wonder. How much are you willing to pay for that ethical purity? It’s very expensive. If the Republican Party disavows and rejects its troglodyte knuckle walkers, casts them into the outer darkness…they will lose those voters. They will lose elections, they will lose power. And what if the trogs outnumber the honest and intelligent conservatives? What if they purge the “moderate” leadership and _they_ are the Republican Party? They were numerous enough to nominate Trump. The corporate right has been clinging to power for years, making promises, making bargains, giving the trog right handjobs and promising real sex, hot monkey love, right after the _next_ election, no, really, just _one_ more… And now they have to suck it. I have often expressed my conviction that conservatism is more a personality type than an ideology. Be that as it may, conservatives deserve a voice and political power proportional to their actual numbers. But no more than that. So, what happens when the Corporadoes expel the Tea Party? Or would it be the Tea Party expels the Corporadoes? Who gets the license, who gets to call themselves “The Republican Party”? Whichever, the remnant will be a rump party, the Loyal Opposition in the wilderness years. They will have a legitimate place to voice their concerns and their criticism, but not the power to enforce them. Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/171 "2016-10-08T18:32:51Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > That still doesn’t make it a reality though. The 70 something cents on a dollar myth for the same work is just a flat-out lie and should be refuted by all people that want to maintain their credibility. It is just a meme that caught on like “we only use 10% of our brains” and should not be repeated because it simply isn’t true. How could it be true? Do male elementary school teachers make much more than their female counterparts with the same credentials and seniority? How about military officers? Of course not because the pay scales are well defined and do not differentiate between males and females. The same thing applies to corporate environments. > > The only way you can get that math to work at all is to just throw everyone into one large bucket that does not differentiate between mothers working as few hours as possible and many men that have to take higher paying jobs with long hours to support their family. That is a brain-dead way of doing such an analysis and does not reflect reality because they are not the primary beneficiaries of the money anyway. > > [http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/](http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/&refURL=https://www.google.com/&referrer=https://www.google.com/) First, show me where I said 70 cents on the dollar. If I did, and don’t remember it, please remind me. Second, I was responding to the point of “If you can hire people for 80 cents on the dollar, why don’t you?” Rather than fighting the hypothetical. Please don’t castigate me for not fighting the hypothetical. Third (I hate lists, but whatever), the 78 cents on the dollar figure does take into account societies expectations about who should stay at home with the kids, what type of degrees they should go for. These are not the employers fault, but they are a problem that needs to be addressed in society. Last, even accounting for all of those factors, there still is a 6 percent wage gap. 94 cents on the dollar that is on the employer. Now, it may be because women aren’t as good at negotiating compensation as men are, so that goes back to a social issue rather than an employment issue, but if you noticed that your females are making 94% of what your males are for the same job, and you don’t do anything about it, even without their having to negotiate, then you are part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/172 "2016-10-08T18:40:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > First, show me where I said 70 cents on the dollar. If I did, and don’t remember it, please remind me. I said 70 _something_ cents on the dollar. That didn’t come from you. It comes from various incarnations of the statistic that are all both oddly specific and incorrect. Sometimes it is 73 cents while others say 78 cents but the people that repeat it say it just like it is just as factual as the atomic number of hydrogen. You happened to pick 80 cents which is just a little higher but still wrong or at least highly misleading. Based on your most recent post, it is obvious that you understand the issue much better than you let on before. My point is that it isn’t doing anyone, especially women, to keep repeating the mythical version of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/173 "2016-10-08T20:31:37Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If anyone wants an example of rape culture, watch the recent Trump video with Billy Bush. A great example – a man brags about groping/sexual assault and Bush’s laughter and egging him on constitutes implicit acceptance and support. In rape culture, groping and sexual assault just aren’t that big a deal to many men (especially powerful men), and considered as part of the perks of being successful and powerful. Sexist, childish (like a HS bully) with zero self-awareness, yes, but even for as bad as the stuff is on the tape, he did not stick his penis inside a woman’s orifice without consent nor did he talk about slipping something in a woman’s drink, etc. That is the only definition of what rape is, and if there is some “rape culture,” is should have to at least include that. [QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] Nevertheless, the Democrats easily nominated a sane centrist, while the Republicans easily nominated Trump. What do you make of those numbers? [/QUOTE] Trump beat his nearest rival by 20% points, Hillary beat her nearest rival by 12%. Primaries usually have wider margins than general contests; and the Dems were far closer to nominating a nutcase than the GOP was to stopping one, per the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/174 "2016-10-08T20:50:51Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Sexist, childish (like a HS bully) with zero self-awareness, yes, but even for as bad as the stuff is on the tape, he did not stick his penis inside a woman’s orifice without consent nor did he talk about slipping something in a woman’s drink, etc. That is the only definition of what rape is, and if there is some “rape culture,” is should have to at least include that. Sexual assault is on the same continuum as rape, and can cause feelings of shame and guilt and long lasting scars on the psyche just like rape. Most rapists also sexuality assault. Diminishing the severity and terribleness of sexual assault aids assaulters and rapists, and thus aids rape culture. Rape culture is about all the things, like sexual assault and even sexual harassment, that normalize rape and the precursors to rape. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/175 "2016-10-08T20:52:31Z")
Kissing someone without consent is assault, and is a lot worse than just sexist and childish. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/176 "2016-10-08T21:16:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, what happens when the Corporadoes expel the Tea Party? Or would it be the Tea Party expels the Corporadoes? Who gets the license, who gets to call themselves “The Republican Party”? Corporadoes, why don’t you come to your senses? You’ve been out riding fences for so long now … ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/177 "2016-10-08T23:33:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sexual assault is on the same continuum as rape, and can cause feelings of shame and guilt and long lasting scars on the psyche just like rape. “Intersectionality,” much? Both are indeed bad things, but if society, the courts, etc. treated the guy who grabs a girl’s butt at the nightclub, or tries to grind with a girl on the dance floor (which I presume you consider sex assault) as bad as the rapist, our prisons would be a whole lot more overcrowded. The level of shame, guilt, etc. is far, FAR lower for groping than it is for rape. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Kissing someone without consent is assault, and is a lot worse than just sexist and childish. Is it sexual assault, or just assault? Again, there’s a reason societies have “assault” and “sexual assault” as different categories. Also, you are aware that most times people kiss, there isn’t a person who asks “may I please kiss you?”, right? Consent for kissing is nearly always sought and interpreted as non-verbal, at least until the girl pulls away or turns her cheek to the guy’s mouth. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most rapists also sexuality assault. Diminishing the severity and terribleness of sexual assault aids assaulters and rapists, and thus aids rape culture. But most gropers, who you equate with sexual assailants, don’t necessarily rape. Even if Trump has groped, I’m sorry, but no, its NOT the same as sticking a penis inside someone. That shouldn’t need to be explained. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Rape culture is about all the things, like sexual assault and even sexual harassment, that normalize rape and the precursors to rape. No one normalized rape! If rape were so normalized, why do rapists get put on lists? Why do rapists get singled out in prison for treatment worse than murderers and thieves do? Parsing bad acts is a hard thing to do, almost like how the Holocaust vs. slavery debate, or rape vs murder, is never a pleasant one. But for the same reasons societies treat a stabber or non-lethal shooter different than the murder, and for the same reasons a person who stabs someone in the chest and hits a lung gets a lighter sentence than a person who cuts someone’s penis off, groping is not rape nor is anywhere close to it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/178 "2016-10-08T23:55:26Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > “Intersectionality,” much? Both are indeed bad things, but if society, the courts, etc. treated the guy who grabs a girl’s butt at the nightclub, or tries to grind with a girl on the dance floor (which I presume you consider sex assault) as bad as the rapist, our prisons would be a whole lot more overcrowded. The level of shame, guilt, etc. is far, FAR lower for groping than it is for rape. > > Is it sexual assault, or just assault? Again, there’s a reason societies have “assault” and “sexual assault” as different categories. Also, you are aware that most times people kiss, there isn’t a person who asks “may I please kiss you?”, right? Consent for kissing is nearly always sought and interpreted as non-verbal, at least until the girl pulls away or turns her cheek to the guy’s mouth. > > But most gropers, who you equate with sexual assailants, don’t necessarily rape. Even if Trump has groped, I’m sorry, but no, its NOT the same as sticking a penis inside someone. That shouldn’t need to be explained. > No one normalized rape! If rape were so normalized, why do rapists get put on lists? Why do rapists get singled out in prison for treatment worse than murderers and thieves do? > > Parsing bad acts is a hard thing to do, almost like how the Holocaust vs. slavery debate, or rape vs murder, is never a pleasant one. But for the same reasons societies treat a stabber or non-lethal shooter different than the murder, and for the same reasons a person who stabs someone in the chest and hits a lung gets a lighter sentence than a person who cuts someone’s penis off, groping is not rape nor is anywhere close to it. God you’re an idiot (and a cowardly bigot, of course). I never said they were the same. They’re not. But sexual assault (including unwanted kissing) is on the same continuum as rape, and pretending that it’s not, or diminishing it’s severity, aids rapists and gropers. Every woman I know with whom I’ve talked about it - literally every single one - has been sexually assaulted at least once in their lives. Most of the men who did it thought it was no big deal, just like you seem to. They, and you are contributing to a culture that signals young men that it’s okay to grab women, or kiss women, in certain circumstances, whether they want it or not. That’s part of rape culture - called as such because it also contributes to rape by telling women that they deserve rape sometimes, and telling young men that sometimes consent isn’t important, and these things are all related. Do you really believe that men who grope or force kisses on women respect women, or think that consent is important? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/179 "2016-10-09T00:35:21Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I don’t live in America. > > And you’re still avoiding my earlier point, namely that there’s no way a modern business would pass up the chance to save 20% on its wages, if only they could get away with hiring women because they can legally pay them less. > > The western world doesn’t work like that. The stupid wage gap exists because the people doing the hiring think that they are less effective. Companies will always want to pay more for talent they find more productive and thus more profitable. They believe men are more qualified for the job They find men easier to work with They believe women will be have issues related to pregnancy/childcare/feminine health that will prevent them from being good employees While I really don’t think that there is any intrinsic biological differences I must have randomly just worked with people whom have always shown those points to be exactly the opposite. Maybe it is because women have to try harder to reach the same level in the tech world but I have always found the women I have worked with or for to be more qualified, more reliable and better team workers. But being in an industry that does have rampant sexism and cultural I have heard the claims. It is also highly likely that the patriarchy is hurting men in their advancement in my field. In a rapidly changing and complex field you need to be making mistakes to move forward and you need to learn constantly. In my limited experience males tend to feel devalued when this happens, and I have seen smart workers careers fail purely because they couldn’t deal with the reality that they it is impossible to be perfect and omnipotent. Especially when it results in them hiding their work from others or repeating the same errors over and over again to save face. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/180 "2016-10-09T01:04:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > God you’re an idiot (and a cowardly bigot, of course). > > I never said they were the same. They’re not. But sexual assault (including unwanted kissing) is on the same continuum as rape, and pretending that it’s not, or diminishing it’s severity, aids rapists and gropers. Every woman I know with whom I’ve talked about it - literally every single one - has been sexually assaulted at least once in their lives. Most of the men who did it thought it was no big deal, just like you seem to. They, and you are contributing to a culture that signals young men that it’s okay to grab women, or kiss women, in certain circumstances, whether they want it or not. That’s part of rape culture - called as such because it also contributes to rape by telling women that they deserve rape sometimes, and telling young men that sometimes consent isn’t important, and these things are all related. > > Do you really believe that men who grope or force kisses on women respect women, or think that consent is important? Do you have an actual cite that “unwanted kisses’” equals sexual assault? In which jurisdiction? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811/181 "2016-10-09T01:20:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Do you have an actual cite that “unwanted kisses’” equals sexual assault? In which jurisdiction? If only there was a global computer network that allowed you to find information with simple searches. Oh ya…we are using it right now. [ > [@](#): > > This sexual assault definition also includes kissing, groping, and fondling. ]([http://legaldictionary.net/sexual-assault/](http://legaldictionary.net/sexual-assault/)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-where-liberalism-has-gone/767811.md?page=10)