I Pit Where Liberalism Has Gone

The BBQ Pit
21

How about you fuck yourself? The guy had just spent eleven years spearheading a project to broaden the intellectual horizons of mankind and he wasn’t given so much as an hour to enjoy his achievement before some haughty SJW asshole decided to take a giant shit all over him for wearing the wrong shirt - a shirt which, incidentally, was designed by a female friend of his and which he was wearing at her request as a favour to her to help promote her business. Does this not suggest an alarming lack of priorities to you? Are you honestly so goddamned fucking stupid that you can’t see how this might rub people up the wrong way?

You are such a fucking dork, you know that?

22

[Moderating]
Telling other posters to fuck themselves is a violation of the Pit’s language rules. Please avoid doing this in the future.

No warning issued.
[/Moderating]

23

Yay! Another weirdo who thinks “social justice warrior” is an insult!

I’m sure it might “rub the wrong way” people who want to wear misogynistic and objectifying clothing without ever being criticized. But I don’t give a fuck. Being criticized and challenged isn’t the end of the world. This guy wasn’t a bad guy – he wore a shirt that some women thought was objectifying and misogynistic. He was called on it. Then he apologized. Good for him! I hope people tell me if I’m wearing something they think is misogynistic, or racist, or otherwise disrespectful or offensive. Maybe I’ll learn something.

24

also, why is it so hard for anyone to define “rape culture?” I’ve asked actual campus activists, sought the internet’s wisdom, and its impossible to find!

[QUOTE=iiiandyiii]
I’m sure it might “rub the wrong way” people who want to wear misogynistic and objectifying clothing without ever being criticized. But I don’t give a fuck. Being criticized and challenged isn’t the end of the world. This guy wasn’t a bad guy – he wore a shirt that some women thought was objectifying and misogynistic. He was called on it. Then he apologized. Good for him! I hope people tell me if I’m wearing something they think is misogynistic, or racist, or otherwise disrespectful or offensive. Maybe I’ll learn something.

[/QUOTE]

Is the song “It’s Raining Men” sexist? Next time women objectify men, I expect you types to call it out. “Sex and the City” turned men into status and sex objects, arguably. But where were the SJWs? (and btw, I think the episodes I did watch were actually pretty good).

Also, it seems Disney’s new movie is “racist,” but when their main characters were mainly, if not only white, it was “they act like non-whites don’t exist.'”

Also, remember; “social justice” was Father Coughlin’s rally cry.

25

Try starting here.

Call such things out all you want – maybe you’d actually learn something in the discussion (though based on your insistence on clinging to your own bigotry and lies, I’m rather skeptical). I’m certainly open to claims that such and such a song or TV show was objectifying of men – patriarchal culture has harmed men as well as women.

No idea what the fuck you’re talking about here. Can someone translate this to non-idiot/non-bigoted English?

Yeah yeah, and Hitler was a vegetarian and liked animals, blah blah blah. They probably wore pants too!

26

You agree that (from the OP): "to be a real progressive, you have to believe that “white supremacy” is something more than the Klan’s ideas, that there can be a world without borders and that borders are inherently wrong and racist, that Christopher Columbus was Hitler, that Israel is evil, that saying anything bad about Muslimism is both bigoted AND racist (even tho Islam is not a race or ethnicity), that being skeptical of transgender ideology is as bad as being a homophobe, and so on. I’ve been told that because I am skeptical of transgenderism, I’m as morally bad as people who physically attack transgendered people. " ? Really?

You agree that these are defining characteristics off liberals or progressives in the US today? Like any group of people, you are going to find extremists among liberals. We have some on this MB. But the OP is taking the most extreme positions (and exaggerating even those) and holding them up as core beliefs of liberals and progressives, which is absolute nonsense. The guy is an idiot or a troll or both. Agree with him if you wish, but you might want to look more carefully at his OP, and his “body of work” on this MB, before locking yourself into that position.

27

No, I didn’t agree with OP’s rant in its entirety; that’s why I quoted the more reasonable post by Memnon.

What I like, when people start arguing past each other, is to look for areas of possible agreement.

@ John Mace - go through the post by Memnon, looking for claims that you do agree with. Don’t look for the stupidest idea and extrapolate that all the ideas and those supporting them are stupid. Instead look for the smartest ideas and see if there is some useful truth there.

28

I read through it twice and didn’t find anything useful there. Mostly bullshit and false understanding of liberal ideas, tinged with whining that some women and others decide to speak up sometimes about things they didn’t used to talk about.

29

“I think that shirt you’re wearing is misogynistic and objectifying. I think wearing that kind of stuff contributes to an environment that some women find hostile.”

“Oh wow, I’m really sorry. I’m going to think about this and try to do better. I definitely don’t want to contribute to a hostile and unwelcoming environment.”

That’s a good outcome, not some tragedy. There was a conversation and an apology and learning. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing.

31

Social Justice Warrior is an insult. That’s what differentiates it from Social Justice Campaigner or Social Justice Activist. The ‘Warrior’ is ironic. They’re called Social Justice Warriors because they’re keyboard warriors. They never do anything but sit around and bitch. Unfortunately, these days, sitting around and bitching is all it takes to ruin somebody’s career.

And I don’t give a fuck that you don’t give a fuck. The guy had just landed a probe on a comet! Matt Taylor had spent over a decade researching, designing, and then performing a bona fide technological miracle. Did the halfwits who led the witch-hunt against him take even a moment to consider the enormity of his achievement? Did they bollocks. They specifically said “I don’t care you landed a probe on a comet”. Firstly, what kind of petty, hare-brained, myopic luddite wouldn’t care about something like that? Secondly, what kind of selfish, agenda-driven asshole wouldn’t have the simple empathy to let the guy enjoy his achievement for a little while before taking a gargantuan shit all over him?

Well it certainly didn’t do Matt Taylor any favours, did it? Instead of being known as the guy who landed a probe on a comet, he’s the #ShirtStorm guy, and he’ll never be able to think about his accomplishment without also thinking about how he was dragged over the coals for absolutely fucking nothing and had to make a tearful apology to placate a bunch of spiteful assholes who cast him as an avatar for institutionalised sexism in the sciences despite the fact they clearly don’t give a fuck about science anyway.

You really didn’t follow what people were actually saying about him, did you? “Thanks for ruining the comet landing for me asshole”, “I’m assuming the lander is saving its harpoons so it can hunt down the bearded idiot in the gross shirt”, “ICYMI, here’s a picture of the douchebag sexist ESA guy’s shirt”, “He was making a statement with that shirt, what a douchebag”, “Would it have been that hard to wear a normal shirt? I’m perfectly ok with geek humour but seriously, fuck you douchebag”, “Really wanted to be excited about the comet without constantly seeing this asshole and and his godawful shirt”. You want a thousand more examples? Just say the word.

This is why the guy broke down in tears during his apology. And by the way, do you think his apology made even the slightest bit of difference? Do you think any of these fucking hateful assholes even so much as thanked him for it? Did they, bollocks! That would’ve taken all the fun out of shitting on him in the first place.

Well, on that, at least, we can agree. I, too, hope that someday you become a target for the Sisterhood of the Perpetually Aggrieved so you can learn what it feels like to be excoriated from here to the fucking moon because you wore a goofy shirt while doing something truly awe-inspiring.

32

Isn’t your post a prime example of acting like a haughty SJW asshole, but just to the guy on the other side of the argument?

Anyway, I think it’s possible to both spend 7 years working at something and also to wear an inappropriate shirt. I’m pretty sure the one thing doesn’t preclude the other.

33

So you’re saying that I should be insulted by being told that I try and argue for social justice? That’s a bad thing, somehow?

I talk about things on the internet because it’s fun. It has nothing to do with trying to fight for social justice.

Criticism isn’t a “witchhunt” or “taking a gargantuan shit all over him”. It’s criticism. Sometimes people make mistakes, as Taylor acknowledged that he did. Sometimes people call you out on it. It’s not the end of the world; it didn’t end Taylor’s career. It’s just criticism. Good for Taylor for handling criticism well and in a straight forward way and trying to improve himself. This had a good outcome.

I imagine Taylor is much stronger and more capable than you give him credit for. It didn’t hurt his career, and he learned from it. A lot of people wouldn’t apologize – they’d dig in and double down and swear that they’re going to wear a t-shirt with naked girls and swastikas and rape porn next time. Good for Taylor for wanting to grow as a person. He wasn’t “dragged over the coals”, he was criticized. Good god, you’d think that saying “hey, I think that shirt you’re wearing/that thing you said is problematic” is like setting their house on fire!

Criticism isn’t the end of the world. It’s something that often leads to discussion and learning.

Examples of what? Internet assholery? That has nothing to do with liberalism – it’s present everywhere. I’m sure there were some assholes who said assholish things. But there were also lots of reasonable and thoughtful criticism – that’s the part that’s liberal and progressive. And that’s what lead to Taylor’s apology, and good for him.

Yes, tons of the people who criticized his t-shirt accepted his apology and praised him for it. Good for him, they said, and I say. It reflects well on him.

I welcome criticism. I want to learn and become better, and I’m far from perfect. I’ve certainly said and done misogynistic and bigoted things in my life, and I want to be called on them if I do such things in the future.

34

One of the earliest critics of Taylor’s t-shirt, Rose Eveleth, tweeted this after his apology:

That was the tone of most of those who had made the thoughtful criticism of Taylor’s shirt after the apology – good for him and glad to hear it.

Another:

Another:

35

I don’t think I was squirming here:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19565757&postcount=737
"I think you need to stop using a lot of straw men to do that.

Speaking by myself I do think like the atheist that said that maybe we should drop a lot of leaflets with Bertrand Russel musings about religion in the middle east. What you and many right wingers see as support of the radicals in reality is support for the vast majority of Muslims that are not using Islam as a call to do war or terrorism. What I do believe is happening is that many on the left do assume that most intelligent people already knows that we also hate the terrorists [and the ones that oppress women]

Sadly, many on the left are wrong. Many on the right are not that bright enough [to notice what we are really saying]"

I’m Really dissapoited on you Wesley Clark.

36

Actually, in some cases they do.

Meanwhile, the gender wage gap, and the gap in opportunity, both definitely do exist. What proportion of our Congress Members and Senators are women? What proportion of the CEOs of the Fortune 500 corporations are women? What are the relative pay rates, across comparable jobs?

Women earn less than men for working just as hard, and for performing very similar work. And, contrary to your beliefs, in some cases they get paid less for exactly the same work.

Don’t blame liberals when it’s you who got the facts wrong.

37

I’m too tired to get into an argument at the moment, so thank you both for summing this up. Love how you said that, GB.

I will, say, though, that DM00 is an idiot borderline troll who makes a shit ton of general statements about what qualifies one to be a liberal and then spits out some anectdotal bullshit about Disney, etc. to support the generalizations.

No, “we” did not have a meeting and decide to go off the rails. Those who support gay rights, freedom from religion, and racial equality are still considered liberals, especially considering the crap happening on the other end of the spectrum. There have always been, and will always be, people more to the left than most, and like the more radical right, they will be vocal about it and piss people off. That’s what makes America great. Which it is, and doesn’t need to be made so again.

38

There are two issues here:

  1. Occasional objectification isn’t wrong, you can’t expect every person to treat every single character and person in media as a full human at all times. But it’s the degree to which it’s done to women in our culture that’s a problem.
  2. I don’t know about Sex and the City in specific, but plenty of feminists criticize shows like Charmed for containing what’s essentially empty, nonsense “girl power” feminism which conflates deciding your female leads are always right with actually tackling social issues.

This is far from a “liberal” issue. Stop lumping all liberals into some groupthink hivemind, there’s significant disagreement about the whole thing over Moana even among the left.

SJW was, perhaps, a meaningful term some time ago, but a couple years ago (around Gamergate, I estimate) it started to become a shorthand for “somebody who disagrees with me.” It has little to do with the sorts of angry liberal people on twitter who would intentionally doxx and harass people, and instead any internet personality espousing a vaguely liberal viewpoint gets accused of being an “SJW”.

While it was arguably a useful term to describe the political mirror of the nastier parts of the MRA and alt-right communities, it has degraded into a blanket slur largely due to overuse by those groups. Like it or not, if you keep using it, people are going to keep lumping you in with them.
to focus.

39

Tell that to Nobel laureate Sir Tim Hunt, who lost his real world job over a self effacing joke thanks to the sort of people and beheaviour that Memnon is referring to.

I agree with Septimus that the responses to issues like this are denigrating, facile and dismissive and only help to radicalize positions; there is a problem with fundamentalist strains of the left that have a real impact in the real world because institutions are scared shitless of becoming a target for their public perception campaigns against whatever bee (real or imaginary) gets under some of those groups bonnet on any given day.

This is a problem, and kneejerk dismissals only serve to exacerbate it.

40

This is a complete mischaracterization of what Tim Hunt said. Here are Hunt’s actual words.

That’s not a self-deprecating joke. Hunt doesn’t actually believe that he’s a monster or even that he’s ever done anything wrong. The problem, as Hunt describes it, is women, and the solution he’s proposing is segregation.

His “apology” was equally lame - “I’m very sorry if people took offence. I certainly did not mean to demean women, but rather be honest about my own shortcomings” and he reemphasized that women cry a lot when you criticize them and it’s bad for science.

In the words of Imran Khan, from that wiki link -

It is not ok to make demeaning comments blaming women for causing problems in your lab and then offer a lameass “I was only joking; I’m sorry if anyone’s offended (and besides I was right about women crying a lot)” is deeply unprofessional. It’s not surprising in the least that his coworkers don’t want to go on working with him.

41

You’ve missed the point of the criticism of that shirt. The point was - the dude had spent eleven years spearheading a project to broaden the intellectual horizons of mankind and he chose that exact moment of his achievement to wear shirt with pinup women all over. The point is - it wasn’t just his moment. It was the moment for everyone on his team, including the women, and all the women who work in science, even though they constantly have to defend their capabilities to people who just think women are sex objects, and it was the moment of all of humankind - including the little girls and boys - in the audience, and the moment for all of the citizen - male and female - who funded his program.

It was everybody’s moment - and he chose that moment to portray women as sex objects.

So he apologized for his unprofessional and sexist shirt. This is progress.

And he cried over it - although Tim Hunt was busy explaining that women crying over criticism is bad and hurts science. Which just shows how bullshit that remark was.

Male scientists need to learn to think about how they address women, both verbally and non-verbally. There may have to be some tears shed. Sometimes lessons are painful.