I pit willfull ignorance and the people who attempt to spread it

Well I think the pharmaceutical industry has a vested interest in doing things certain ways, which might put off a cure for cancer if for no other reason that they won’t be researching a inexpensive natural quick cure. Some factors:

  • The can’t patent natural products, so anyone can make / sell them, which takes away the incentive to research them (and puts incentive to discredit them)
  • Cancer treatment is not a one shot deal (as Solfy suggested), but ongoing, including possilby immune suppressing drugs for life. A total cure would cost them in this area.
  • They would make more money to maintain people on a lifetime of medication that they supply rather then curing them.

Did you read the first post?

They can’t patent a plant picked directly from the ground, no. Since it seems incredibly unlikely that a cancercuring plant exists, this doesn’t matter.

As they could dictate the cost for the total cure, this is wrong.

This is the same point as your second point. Did you feel two weren’t enough?

Kancibird, pharm companies are allowed to patent genetic codes, what makes you think they wouldn’t be allowed to patent a specific combination of “natural” products that somehow cure cancer? Obviously, no one thing is going to do it. So any natural cure that could possibly be left, would be somewhat complicated and therefore quite patentable (I made up a word there.) Besides, haven’t you heard of Asprin?

He fears the wrath of Opal.

I would disagree with this, what government would allow a company to withhold the cure for cancer from a person who is unable to pay if such a cure is readably available, and cheaply made? There would be great political pressure and public outcry to keep the price affordable.

It is much to their benefit to produce medications that sort of work, but don’t cure anything, basically to improve (or maintain) quality of life without being a total cure, this avoids the public outcry and political pressure to release the cure to the public domain.

[John McEnroe]You cannot be serious![/John McEnroe]

First of all, you are aware of treatments that are available today for people who pay, and not for people who don’t pay, right? You are aware that drugs are paid for by patients? You’re familiar with the concept? I mean, I live in a liberal socialist paradise and I still pay for drugs. Some of the cost is picked up by the government, which pays the pharmaceutical companies, so they get their money. What the fuck do they care where it comes from?

Second of all, remind me: what can the government do against a company that sells its products at a price that the government feels is too high? Could you present some historical examples?

As for public outcry and political pressure - they have a monopoly on the cure for cancer! What are people going to do, exactly? Boycott them and keep dying?

Would the mother be a person that blames all her problems on somebody else? I think the chances are good that she is that type of person. Any explanation that can make a problem somebody else’s fault is chosen over a more rational one that doesn’t. The daughter is just overwhelmed by the mother.

Are these cans gay or what?

Solfy, I’ll bet you could really start a firestorm if you asked the mon if the cousin has been immunized for HPV.
But of course, that would mean she was giving the girl permission to become sexually active… :rolleyes:

:smiley: Ok, yes, I am evil this morning.

You, sir, are a very evil man.

Perhaps, that’s why you’re the one withholding the cure for cancer.

I haven’t heard her place the blame for her problems, but I imagine she would. She’s too busy impressing us with her brilliance all day long and telling us exactly how we should be living our lives. The daughter(s) are completely railroaded by their mother. The oldest will be off to college in two years and predictions are that she’s going to go completely wild out from under that overbearing thumb.

:eek: Aunt Diana, is that you?

(But it couldn’t be - she’s boycotting both the local phone company and the only cable company that services her area and hasn’t figured out how to get the computer back on the internet)

Let me say it again - you don’t “maintain” quality of life with cancer. You are either trying to eliminate it or you are dying from it. (with the possible exception of very slow cancers such as prostate)

Power and telecommunications come to mind, which along with price regulation of a natural monopoly also ensured to bring services to as many as practical by mandating services to low population areas.

I think it’s pretty obvious that the drug companies stand to make far more by getting people on $100’s or even 1000's /month in drug expenditures, where the /s per month can be scaled by income levels ( the rich will pay the highest $'s for the 'newest and greatest meds, while the middle class w/o great insurance might go for other treatments that cost less), then a single pill at a single price, no matter what that price would be (due to raising the price will lower the # of people willing and able to pay).

If they have a natural monopoly they might ask the Gov’t to regulate them.

You think the government - I assume we’re talking about the US government here - would react to a company keeping its prices “too high” by cutting its power and phone lines? I have two questions for you:

  1. Can you provide an example of this happening in modern times?
  2. If not, what colour is the sky on your planet?

I think it’s pretty obvious that the price of the onetime treatment is absolutely crucial in this equation. If you don’t understand that… I don’t know how to finish the sentence because I can’t see any reasonable way that you could honestly not understand that.

Nope, you misunderstood me. The US gov’t, or the states have regulated land line phone services and electric, not only to control the price but to ensure services to low population areas, areas where the utilities would never make up their original investment has service they would not have if is was not for the government intervention. - it is a precedent of the government stepping in to regulate businesses for the greater good of the public. eminent domain is another such instance.

Well we agree with that, but I contend it’s you who is missing the lesson in economics here.

You think they’d step in and regulate cancer curing? They would appropriate a private patent in order to make curing cancer a public service? If the government is ready to do that, then why do you even have a debate about public healthcare?

Jeez, I don’t even think the Swedish government would do that. And we’re fucking Communists, every last one of us.

So you changed your mind since your last post then? You now agree that the price of the onetime treatment matters in the equation? Great. But what about your point then? Got lost didn’t it?

I think your either smoking something or perhaps work for a pharmaceutical company, you are trying to twist my words, but failing in wording and substance. A lifetime of income adjustable drugs will get more profit $'s then a one time treatment at a set price.

Also are you aware that some countries already regulate the price of drugs?

But THERE IS NO LIFETIME CANCER DRUG. Unless you consider the artifically short lifetime of someone with terminal cancer. Tell me what this lifetime “adjustable drug” is that is so profitable.

Note Solfy’s objection, which you have so far failed to address. Even ignoring that for the time being, do you seriously not realize that we cannot ascertain whether AB is greater than, lesser than or equal to C without knowing the value of C? If not, what the hell were you trying to say when you said we agree?

Of course. Guess what happens if the company finds its prices so heavily regulated that they make a better profit from their usual business.

Well, sure, if the “lifetime” in question is thirty or forty or fifty years. With most cancers, it’s sort of kind of not. You’re also leaving out two more factors that would increase the profit of a pharma company that created a true cure - market share and R&D costs.

Let’s play a game with numbers (some of these articles are a bit old, but usable for illustrative purposes).

The median overall survival (time from date of first treatment to date of death from any cause) in metastatic colorectal cancer among patients treated with 5-fluorouracil, leucovorin, and irinotecan - basically chemotherapy - is 15.6 months. Adding the fairly new agent bevacizumab (Avastin) to this regimen extended overall survival to 20.3 months in this population. (cite)

Now, typically, treatment with bevacizumab would be withdrawn once the cancer progresses - ie, once the treatment no longer works - so in reality a typical metastatic CRC patient is going to be receiving bevacizumab for less than 20 months, but let’s go with 20 months. So your median mCRC patient gets 20 months of therapy with bevacizumab.

Genentech charges about $4400/month for Avastin. So, from your typical patient with mCRC, they are getting approximately $88,000 before that patient dies (again, really less, since in most cases the patient will progress).

Very approximately, 150,000 colorectal cancer cases are diagnosed each year, with about 20% of those being metastatic at diagnosis. So, 30,000 patients present as mCRC and might receive bevacizumab for these purposes. But not all will. Because bevacizumab is not curative, an individual oncologist might decide to use an alternative agent, or radiation therapy, or whatever. So let’s say that of those 30,000, 20,000 receive bevacizumab for 20 months median.

That means that under the current system, Genentech would net around $1.76 billion per year of new cancer cases (all numbers estimated, again).


Now suppose someone at Genentech actually did have access to a super-secret cure for metastatic CRC (we’ll call it MAGICDRUG). Let’s say they price it reasonably - at $75,000 per patient for a full course, meaning that your typical patient is actually paying less than for a standard course of bevacizumab.

But this is a cure. There is no reason not to take MAGICDRUG if you have metastatic CRC. So all 30,000 patients diagnosed with this condition will take MAGICDRUG at $75,000 each. Net income per year of new diagnoses: $2.25 billion. And of course, in real life, MAGICDRUG would be priced closer to $100,000 for a full course, thus dramatically increasing its profitability.

So it would in fact be considerably more profitable to create a cure than to sell a maintainence drug.

Plus, and even more significantly, once you’ve created your cure, you no longer need to research new treatments for colorectal cancer. Your R&D budget can be slashed, or else the funds can be turned toward other disease states.


Now tell me this. Why would Genentech continue to pour millions upon millions of dollars into researching new agents that might grant two or three extra months (at best!) on top of bevacizumab (thus resulting in an extra $12,000 or so per patient), when they could control the entire market, cut their development costs, and make much more money using that cure on which they are hypothetically sitting?

Thank you for the kind words. That said, I would never withhold such a thing. I would heartlessly price gouge, and not necessarily just for money. As King Louie XIV once said, “It’s good to be the king!”