# I pit women who "backslide" long enough to have an abortion, then repent **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 18, 2008, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084 "2008-02-18T10:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/101 "2008-02-18T20:56:26Z")
Congratulations to both of you, **Dio**! When is the birth expected to be, and are we going to be invited to a shower? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/102 "2008-02-18T21:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Here we go with the typical dishonesty of trying to pretend we’re talking about full term babies instead of 1st trimester bloodclots. That’s just bullshit misdirection. What’s the difference between a child and an adult? A person is the same one second after his 18th birthday as before it, is he not? Therefore a newborn baby is exactly the same as an adult and should be afforded all the same rights and priveleges. Of course it gets grayer the further along a pregnancy becomes. But we aren’t talking about 8 or 9 months along, we’re talking about 6 or 8 _weeks_ along (which is where the vast majority of both miscarriages and abortions occur) and I just don’t have the patience to humor some idiot in the delusion that he’s lost an actual child because his girlfriend terminated an embryo. Any equating of that tissue clump with a real, born baby (because they think it’s imbued with a magical fairy spirit) is self-absorbed and inane and insensitive to people who really _have_ lost children. Anybody ritually marking the “birthday” of his aborted bloodclot is just a pathetic attention whore, IMO. Also, how does he even know it was his? What if it was mine? I bet he’d feel like a right chump then? [/QUOTE] Look, I don’t think anyone would argue that the person who celebrated the imaginary birthdays couldn’t use a little counseling so he could deal more properly with his grief and move on. But the problem is, there was no indication in the post as to when the abortion was performed, and you’ve gone way past that making broad statements that could apply to any abortion or any miscarriage. One needn’t believe in a soul to mourn the loss of an embryo or fetus-- not on the part of the mother or the father. Perhaps you really do feel that way, but nobody else that I know of, and nobody else in this thread does. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/103 "2008-02-18T21:10:15Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Here we go with the typical dishonesty of trying to pretend we’re talking about full term babies instead of 1st trimester bloodclots. That’s just bullshit misdirection. [/QUOTE] Dude, the things you wrote before don’t magically vanish when you turn your back. You wrote: > [@](#): > > My wife is pregnant again right now. As always. My concerns are entirely for her. I won’t have another child until it’s born. If she were to hypothetically miscarry [knock on wood] All I would care about is my wife. I would not feel that I had lost a child. I don’t think that way. I don’t confuse fantasy with reality. You want to revise and extend this now? You said in black and white that you won’t have any feelings about that bloodclot until after it is born. As for miscarriages of 6 week old embryos, at 6 weeks most women aren’t even going to notice a miscarriage that early unless they’re really tuned in to their bodies. Sure, the majority of miscarriages occurs then, but that’s not how most people experience miscarriage, because to experience the miscarriage people have to know that it occured. So you’re just posing when you imagine that people who mourn miscarriages are mourning a miscarriage at 6 weeks. How about miscarriages at 4 months, or 5 months? You’re a total fucking douche on this issue, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/104 "2008-02-18T21:12:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Here we go with the typical dishonesty of trying to pretend we’re talking about full term babies instead of 1st trimester bloodclots. That’s just bullshit misdirection. [/QUOTE] Did you not just say this a few posts back? [QUOTE=Diogenes] My wife is pregnant again right now. As always. My concerns are entirely for her. I won’t have another child until it’s born. If she were to hypothetically miscarry [knock on wood] All I would care about is my wife. I would not feel that I had lost a child. I don’t think that way. I don’t confuse fantasy with reality. [/QUOTE] Which is it, **Diogenes**? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/105 "2008-02-18T21:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Look, I don’t think anyone would argue that the person who celebrated the imaginary birthdays couldn’t use a little counseling so he could deal more properly with his grief and move on. But the problem is, there was no indication in the post as to when the abortion was performed, and you’ve gone way past that making broad statements that could apply to any abortion or any miscarriage. One needn’t believe in a soul to mourn the loss of an embryo or fetus-- not on the part of the mother or the father. Perhaps you really do feel that way, but nobody else that I know of, and nobody else in this thread does. [/QUOTE] Well, we know that 90% of all abortions are performed in the 1st trimester and that 3rd trimester abortions are illegal but for rare, extreme cases, so there is a 99.99% chance that the pregancy in question was not terminated after the 2nd trimester and a 90% chance it was the 1st. There’s virtually _no_ chance it was anything close to full term so any reference to full term babies is just a red herring. Look, I understand and sympathize with the profound disppointment and heartbreak of losing a pregnancy through miscarriage. I don’t conceptualize it as the actual death of a person but I understand the emotional letdown. Some dude trying to play the grieving parent because some chick aborted his embryo, though. That’s just lame. He was never a parent. He never had a child. I can tell you this, if I had to choose between my wife losing this pregnancy or losing one of the kids we’ve already got…it would require no reflection at all. Losing this preghnancy would not be anywhere _close_ to the same thing and I am confident that anyone in this thread who has kids would agree with me, and that in itself, puts the lie to any equating of the loss of a fetus with the loss of a child. I would get over a miscarriage without much difficulty. The loss of one of my children would _wreck_ me. I think it’s depraved to say that already born, living children with personalities and histories have no more value than a clump of insentient tissue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/106 "2008-02-18T21:24:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Did you not just say this a few posts back? Which is it, **Diogenes**? [/QUOTE] Here’s the thing-- \*\*Diogenes \*\*insists that the term “child” only be used post-birth. So, he won’t allow someone to say they lost a child if there is a miscarriage or if the fetus is stillborn. But of course no one in this thread is argueing that a miscarriage is exactly like losing a child. It’s all about winning the abortion debate with semantics. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/107 "2008-02-18T21:27:48Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] Congratulations to both of you, **Dio**! When is the birth expected to be, and are we going to be invited to a shower? [/QUOTE] Thanks. Due in October. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/108 "2008-02-18T21:29:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Did you not just say this a few posts back? Which is it, **Diogenes**? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand what you think is contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/109 "2008-02-18T21:29:08Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Well, we know that 90% of all abortions are performed in the 1st trimester and that 3rd trimester abortions are illegal but for rare, extreme cases, so there is a 99.99% chance that the pregancy in question was not terminated after the 2nd trimester and a 90% chance it was the 1st. There’s virtually _no_ chance it was anything close to full term so any reference to full term babies is just a red herring. Look, I understand and sympathize wuth the profound disppointment and heartbreak of losing a pregnancy through miscarriage. I don’t conceptualize it as the actual death of a person but I understand the emotional letdown. [/quote] That’s an entirely different position that you’ve been arguing up to this point. If you can’t see that, then you really don’t understand what you’re writing. I note that you never addressed my post #73. That is the crux of the matter here, and what people are taking issue with in your position. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/110 "2008-02-18T21:31:06Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Incidentally: Lying isn’t against any commandment. [/QUOTE] Except the Eighth. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/111 "2008-02-18T21:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Dude, the things you wrote before don’t magically vanish when you turn your back. You wrote: You want to revise and extend this now? You said in black and white that you won’t have any feelings about that bloodclot until after it is born. As for miscarriages of 6 week old embryos, at 6 weeks most women aren’t even going to notice a miscarriage that early unless they’re really tuned in to their bodies. Sure, the majority of miscarriages occurs then, but that’s not how most people experience miscarriage, because to experience the miscarriage people have to know that it occured. So you’re just posing when you imagine that people who mourn miscarriages are mourning a miscarriage at 6 weeks. How about miscarriages at 4 months, or 5 months? You’re a total fucking douche on this issue, and you know it. [/QUOTE] For me personally, I don’t feel like it’s a _child_ until it’s born…before that…it’s something else. It’s a different level of feeling. Not nothing but not comparable to how I feel about my real kids either. This whole thing started because I was disparaging some idiot who marked the “birthdays” of his _aborted_ fetus, by the way, not a miscarriage. That’s just retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/112 "2008-02-18T21:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t understand what you think is contradictory. [/QUOTE] Uh…the same thing **Lemur** thought was contradictory. And the same thing **John Mace** thought was contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/113 "2008-02-18T21:35:00Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] For me personally, I don’t feel like it’s a _child_ until it’s born…before that…it’s something else. It’s a different level of feeling. Not nothing but not comparable to how I feel about my real kids either. This whole thing started because I was disparaging some idiot who marked the “birthdays” of his _aborted_ fetus, by the way, not a miscarriage. That’s just retarded. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s the way it started, but you took it much further than that. Again, post #73, if you please. If you didn’t mean to say what I quoted there, then just retract it. If you stand by it, then people are going to keep going after you for it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/114 "2008-02-18T21:35:29Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] That’s an entirely different position that you’ve been arguing up to this point. [/quote] How so? > [@](#): > > note that you never addressed my post #73. That is the crux of the matter here, and what people are taking issue with in your position. I stand by what I said. If a woman choses to terminate a pregnancy, the sperm donor has lost nothing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/115 "2008-02-18T21:37:30Z")
You just keep digging there, **Diogenes**. Apparently that’s what you’re good at! Also, please note that you specifically said “miscarriage” in that section I quoted. Did you even read it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/116 "2008-02-18T21:39:30Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Uh…the same thing **Lemur** thought was contradictory. And the same thing **John Mace** thought was contradictory. [/QUOTE] I’m still not seeing it. Maybe I’m just dense. Someone’s going to have to help me out here. If this helps. I would say that no matter how late my wife miscarried, I would still never feel like I’d lost an actual child. I might feel disappointed that a child never materialized out of the pregnancy, but I wouldn’t feel like anyone had _died_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/117 "2008-02-18T21:40:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You just keep digging there, **Diogenes**. Apparently that’s what you’re good at! Also, please note that you specifically said “miscarriage” in that section I quoted. Did you even read it? [/QUOTE] Nobody who has a miscarriage is actually losing a child. Better? And I don’t care how late the miscarriage is. It’s not even close to the same thing as losing a real child. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/118 "2008-02-18T21:41:55Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I’m still not seeing it. Maybe I’m just dense. Someone’s going to have to help me out here. If this helps. I would say that no matter how late my wife miscarried, I would still never feel like I’d lost an actual child. I might feel disappointed that a child never materialized out of the pregnancy, but I wouldn’t feel like anyone had _died_. [/QUOTE] You are creating the false dichotomy that you either lose “a child” or you lose “nothing”. Here it is again: > [@DtC](#): > > It’s asinine for the man to try to act like he lost anything. The only reason to lament a miscarriage would be sympathy for the woman who wanted the pregnancy… There is a lot of space in between “a child” and “nothing”. A fetus isn’t “nothing” and an embryo isn’t “nothing”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/119 "2008-02-18T21:46:37Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You are creating the false dichotomy that you either lose “a child” or you lose “nothing”. Here it is again: There is a lot of space in between “a child” and “nothing”. A fetus isn’t “nothing” and an embryo isn’t “nothing”. [/QUOTE] Let’s stick with “nothing” then. I would not feel like I had actually “lost” a damn thing. I would just be disappointed that a pregnancy didn’t take. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084/120 "2008-02-18T21:48:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Let’s stick with “nothing” then. I would not feel like I had actually “lost” a damn thing. I would just be disappointed that a pregnancy didn’t take. [/QUOTE] Well, you’d probably be unusual in that respect. Do you really think it’s “asinine” for someone to feel differently than you do under those circumstances, even when you have many people in this thread telling you that that they would? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-women-who-backslide-long-enough-to-have-an-abortion-then-repent/438084.md?page=7)