# I Pit(y) Orson Scott Card **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342 "2012-11-08T06:44:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/41 "2012-11-08T18:37:10Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Look at Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson–both nutty as SHIT, but I still watch their movies. They’re still good actors. Impressive deadpanning. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/42 "2012-11-08T18:43:51Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Impressive deadpanning. 1. Hamlet 2. Jerry Maguire 3. Bite my bird. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/43 "2012-11-08T18:46:07Z")
> [@Typo\_Knig](#): > > I own a cassette tape of his talk “The Secular Humanist Revival Meeting” that he used to give at Cons. What happened to that guy? 9/11. I think he was always kind of vaguely socially conservative, but as the Secular Humanist tape shows, he was against the kind of crazy conservative agit-prop the OP links to. 9/11 drove him (and a lot of other people) around the bend, and he doesn’t seemed to have ever looked back. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/44 "2012-11-08T18:55:09Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > 1. Hamlet > 2. Jerry Maguire > 3. Bite my bird. 1. Signs/Forever Young/Patriot/Air America/Braveheart 2. Fucking anything he’s ever appeared in including Jerry Maguire. 3. Nah, really, they’re both fucking ineligible for the word actor. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/45 "2012-11-08T18:58:34Z")
I think Tom Cruise is an excellent actor. Tastes vary, of course, but just because you think he sucks doesn’t mean he actually does. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/46 "2012-11-08T19:03:21Z")
Just for shits & giggles, let me chuck in a possible reason why Ender’s Game would have been added to the reading list for the USMC and others. The basic premise is that it’s ok to do whatever is required to win a war, whatever the cost, and best to do it at such a remote distance that your key operators are blissfully unaware of the actual impact of their actions. Even better, the rather blatant analogous socialist enemy sends you an apology from the grave saying it was all their fault. Now normally I’d be wary of viewing any author as being THAT simplistic…and then I read OSC’s “it’s not prejudiced, gays can marry people of opposite gender just like straights” and realise that really he’s a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/47 "2012-11-08T19:06:44Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I think Tom Cruise is an excellent actor. Tastes vary, of course, but just because you think he sucks doesn’t mean he actually does. Interview with a Vampire: Tom Cruise is a soulless recluse who lurks in the darkness and sucks the life from all who come near him. He’s also in this movie about a vampire. (1994) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/48 "2012-11-08T19:08:47Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Now normally I’d be wary of viewing any author as being THAT simplistic…and then I read OSC’s “it’s not prejudiced, gays can marry people of opposite gender just like straights” and realise that really he’s a fucking idiot. ETA: very vague spoilers for the Ender’s series follow: But again, Card at the time he wrote Ender’s Game was doing the rounds at sci-fi conventions literally preaching open-mindedness and tolerance (albeit not specifically to gays). I don’t think he was the same guy that wrote his later screeds against homosexuals. Also, the sequels to Ender’s books made it pretty clear that the stuff Ender did in the first book was a bad thing. And even in Ender’s Game, the characters are pretty conflicted about it. I don’t think it reads as an apologia for mass murder. (and I think Cruise is a good actor to, 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/49 "2012-11-08T19:14:46Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > 9/11. > > I think he was always kind of vaguely socially conservative, but as the Secular Humanist tape shows, he was against the kind of crazy conservative agit-prop the OP links to. 9/11 drove him (and a lot of other people) around the bend, and he doesn’t seemed to have ever looked back. Yeah, he wasn’t always that way. Anybody who thinks he was hasn’t been a fan for very long. I personally was introduced to his work by reading Ender’s Game back in 1988, and he was a very different person back then. I’ll admit he’s been pro-Mormon and very in favor of having lots of kids (which is a corollary to being Mormon) for pretty much as long as he’s been writing. He didn’t used to get into political arguments at book signings, though. I’ve gone to his signings at least 5 or 6 times since the mid-90s, and things have changed. In addition, he has started letting his pro-military/anti-liberal opinions into his work in the last 10 years or so, and that’s an unwelcome change. I really think the Lewinsky scandal, plus personal changes, AND 9/11 all contributed to what is going on with him. Maybe he’ll get over it, but it won’t happen in time. When the Ender’s Game movie comes out, people unaware of him are going to be unpleasantly surprised, if they try to find out more about the author of the original novel. It’s just going to be a clusterfuck. ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/50 "2012-11-08T19:27:39Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I still like Ender’s Game (and the sequels) and I’m planning to see the movie. Just because the guy isn’t a paragon of progressive thought doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy his work. Look at Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson–both nutty as SHIT, but I still watch their movies. They’re still good actors. Except that Tom Cruise and Mel Gibson aren’t openly taking parts as “crazy Scientologist” and “Crazy Anti-Semitic Misogynistic Racist” in all their movies of the past 10 years. Sadly, that’s pretty much where OSC’s fiction is. Even his early stuff, yes. Pick up a copy of “Songbird” sometimes. Used, of course, or better yet, from the library. And if you want someone to read “Ender’s Game?” Buy them a copy of John Steakley’s “Armor” instead. Much better exploration of the concept, but without the Ender-is-Christ angle. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/51 "2012-11-08T19:56:05Z")
Was Larry Niven headed straight into the toilet _before_ he met Jerry Pournelle? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/52 "2012-11-08T20:16:05Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I suspect I can find several well-educated, experienced political commentator that will endorse pretty much everything in OSC’s screed. Indeed, I suspect that’s where most of this stuff comes from, its not like its original to Card. \ Yeah, true enough. Well, I think my point still stands - get opinions from more than one source, especially when that source is an entertainer of some kind. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/53 "2012-11-08T20:23:39Z")
I believe he’s also one of those anti-gay writers who justifies prohibitions against homosexual behavior by saying that if it were okay for men to fuck men, then men would never fuck women and the species would end. Which pretty much says “closet case” to me, because wtf? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/54 "2012-11-08T20:33:08Z")
In my dreams, maybe, all hot guys are just as happy to fuck other hot guys. Unfortunately this is not the case in real life. I agree, Tom; closet case… ---
**Author:** ![Mrs.Cake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2acd7d/32.png) [@Mrs.Cake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs.Cake)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/55 "2012-11-08T21:05:06Z")
Ha, found a podcast of OSC from a long time ago - his Secular Humanist Revival meeting. Very amusing, from a very different OSC. Whatever happened to this guy? [http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/60671](http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/60671) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/56 "2012-11-08T21:08:51Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > QFT. Entertainers are popular because they are (usually) likable, or at least their works are popular. Actors in particular are good at projecting ideas and emotions…but they are not necessarily deep or logical thinkers. If someone hasn’t given them a script to read, then their lack of intelligence is only too apparent. And since they are adored by so many people, they tend to think that their opinions are valuable. True in general, but OSC is a smart guy. There are some people who make me wonder how they can be so smart—so knowledgeable, so thoughtful, so well-read, so articulate—and yet at the same time be so stupid—so blind, so thick-headed, so missing the point, so wrong about certain things. Card is such a person. > [@](#): > > If you haven’t read Card’s _Ender’s Game_, you should. It’s deserved its status as a classic. I think the sequels are readable, but not up to the first one. I also like the Alvin the Maker series, or at least the first two or three. He’s written some other SF, both novels and shorter works, and some of it is very good and some of it I didn’t care for at all. In some of his works, it’s quite apparent that his religion has had a big influence. I’ve read and enjoyed quite a bit of his work. His Mormon point of view, when it shows, isn’t necessarily a bad thing; I don’t want to only read books by authors with a narrow range of backgrounds and points of view. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I still like Ender’s Game (and the sequels) and I’m planning to see the movie. Just because the guy isn’t a paragon of progressive thought doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy his work. Look at Tom Cruise or Mel Gibson–both nutty as SHIT, but I still watch their movies. They’re still good actors. > > The Mormon indoctrination against gays seems to be \*\*really \*\*thorough and pervasive. I’ve known plenty of Christians who changed from being \*strongly \*anti-gay to being generally accepting, but never a Mormon. I used to be friends with a Mormon and, while he was generally a nice guy and very anti-racism, he couldn’t shake off the absolute truth that gay = hell. Maybe it’s because Mormonism is so monolithic and Christianity is so diverse, I dunno. That, and/or maybe it’s something to do with how uniquely central marriage and family seem to be to Mormon beliefs (or at least that’s the impression I get). ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/57 "2012-11-08T21:24:04Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > This is why it is such a bad idea to listen to the politics of anyone who isn’t a respected, well-educated, experienced political commentator. Actors, musicians, athletes and writers don’t know shit - they’re just spouting their own personal opinion, and using their fame to give their opinion more weight than it deserves. No, they’re using their fame to give their opinion a wider broadcast. The weight assigned to it is the responsibility of each member of the audience. Ideally, they would use the same criteria they’d use to evaluate the opinions of anyone else; some actors, etc., just like non-famous people, are knowledgeable or insightful in certain areas outside their working field. Do you think that nobody should ever listen to your opinion about anything other than your own job? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/58 "2012-11-08T21:25:44Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I believe he’s also one of those anti-gay writers who justifies prohibitions against homosexual behavior by saying that if it were okay for men to fuck men, then men would never fuck women and the species would end. Which pretty much says “closet case” to me, because wtf? Did he really say that? If so, then yeah, he’s gayer than jizz on a mustache. But I doubt he said anything so obviously closet-case like. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/59 "2012-11-08T21:26:02Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > He wrote about 3 good books. Unfortunately, they were the same damn book… No, alas, I’m in the same boat as several others: I loved his fiction, until I learned what kind of monster he is, and swore him off. It amazes me that someone who can write from the viewpoint of the gentle, mature wisdom of Speaker for the Dead can, himself, have such contempt for gentility, maturity, and wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/60 "2012-11-08T21:51:48Z")
I just found this [essay](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034)which proposes that Ender’s Game was really an apologia for Hitler and that Card might not even be the actual author. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342.md?page=4)