# I Pit(y) Orson Scott Card **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342 "2012-11-08T06:44:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/61 "2012-11-08T21:52:22Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I get that you might be so repulsed at someone’s views you no longer wish to support their creative works via purchase, and you stop recommending him to your friends, but really, dump all your old OSC books that you enjoyed simply because you find out he’s a bigot? That I don’t get - all you’re doing is depriving yourself of something you’ve enjoyed. **Feyrat** said “it was impossible to enjoy them anymore,” so it would appear that there was no deprivation. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/62 "2012-11-08T23:21:51Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > This is why it is such a bad idea to listen to the politics of anyone who isn’t a respected, well-educated, experienced political commentator. Actors, musicians, athletes and writers don’t know shit - they’re just spouting their own personal opinion, and using their fame to give their opinion more weight than it deserves. Well, I agree so far as actors, athletes, musicians go, but with writers, it really is their mind, their thought processes you’re admiring. Discovering an author’s mind is full of some nasty crap really does change the whole experience of reading their works in a way it doesn’t if you’re mainly admiring someone because they can run really fast, or look good in front of a camera. Some of my favourite authors are my favourite in part because they deal with real world issues and politics (generally fictionalised parallels, but still); some of them have changed the way I see reality, the way I think of other people. I don’t have that sort of cerebral ‘relationship’ with someone who plays tunes I like. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/63 "2012-11-08T23:29:18Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > I don’t have that sort of cerebral ‘relationship’ with someone who plays tunes I like. I do. A different part of the cerebrum, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/64 "2012-11-09T00:01:59Z")
Ender’s Game sucked. I, Astroboy14, have spoken. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/65 "2012-11-09T00:14:43Z")
I would argue that it’s entirely possible to enjoy a work of fiction while still disagreeing with the values it espouses. I, for example, love the Chronicles of Narnia despite being a lifelong atheist. Hell, my favorite book in the series is _The Silver Chair,_ which has a strawman atheist as its main antagonist. I’ve never read Card’s work, though, so I don’t feel qualified to comment on it. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/66 "2012-11-09T00:43:45Z")
> [@](#): > > send a clear message that those who flagrantly violate society’s regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society Card can, of course, cite as a positive example the good work along those lines done people of Illinois back in the 1840s. Not effectively enough – some of the deviants got away alive – but they tried. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/67 "2012-11-09T00:45:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I have so often found that some writer’s/musician’s/artist’s politics are at odds with my own that it no longer surprises me. I get that you might be so repulsed at someone’s views you no longer wish to support their creative works via purchase, and you stop recommending him to your friends, but really, dump all your old OSC books that you enjoyed simply because you find out he’s a bigot? That I don’t get - all you’re doing is depriving yourself of something you’ve enjoyed. As said, **Feyrat** no longer _can_ enjoy them: > [@Feyrat](#): > > Once it was pointed out, his poisonous opinions on gays and god had seeped through his writing, and it was impossible to enjoy them anymore. > [@Feyrat](#): > > And if you want someone to read “Ender’s Game?” Buy them a copy of John Steakley’s “Armor” instead. Much better exploration of the concept, but without the Ender-is-Christ angle. Plus, _Armor_ is just plain good. Speaking of which, a nice bit of _Armor_ fanart I happened across a while back; [The Engine by \*Konjur.](http://konjur.deviantart.com/art/The-Engine-128209971) _“The engine, he thought. It’s not me. It’s my Engine. It will work when I cannot. It will examine and determine and choose and at last, act. It will do all this while I cower inside.”_ ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/68 "2012-11-09T01:11:52Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > You should have read the whole thing. Here’s the beginning: > > Card is dead on target with this. Of course you’re whining and bitching about HIM, rather than being outraged about Obama’s lies and the media’s complicity in those lies. And now you’ll start whining and bitching about me, because I was crass enough to point it out instead of marching along in the liberal zombie battalions. Yeah. Well, just as I predicted, your big smoking gun was— like Ayersgate, Wrightgate, Birthergate, and every other feeble attempt to sink Obama by exposing “the truth”— a big dud. Once again, you and your clown comrades with the Kool-Aid rings around your mouths are left standing there holding a dead stump of a firecracker, looking stupid and looking for someone else to blame. And now you’re out of matches and your soiled pants are down around your ankles. I’ve tried to forgo Schadenfreude but people like you make it _so_ hard. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/69 "2012-11-09T03:24:44Z")
Yes…yes…let it flow over you…hating isn’t as bad if its only effect is to make you laugh. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/70 "2012-11-09T03:31:21Z")
> [@Astroboy14](#): > > Ender’s Game sucked. > > I, Astroboy14, have spoken. I approve this message. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/71 "2012-11-09T04:06:56Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Well, I agree so far as actors, athletes, musicians go, but with writers, it really is their mind, their thought processes you’re admiring. > > Discovering an author’s mind is full of some nasty crap really does change the whole experience of reading their works in a way it doesn’t if you’re mainly admiring someone because they can run really fast, or look good in front of a camera. Some of my favourite authors are my favourite in part because they deal with real world issues and politics (generally fictionalised parallels, but still); some of them have changed the way I see reality, the way I think of other people. > > I don’t have that sort of cerebral ‘relationship’ with someone who plays tunes I like. I don’t think I agree with this - what goes into making someone a fiction writer has nothing to do with how they feel about current events any more than someone throwing a ball does. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/72 "2012-11-09T04:23:26Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Did he really say that? If so, then yeah, he’s gayer than jizz on a mustache. But I doubt he said anything so obviously closet-case like. I know that people have made that argument in earnest, and I have a distinct memory of being surprised to find that Card was one of them, but I can’t now find a direct reference, so I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/73 "2012-11-09T09:22:16Z")
My original reason for wanting to ditch my stuff by OSC was that I didn’t really like how Petra’s story ended. I thought he could have fleshed her out more and I wanted to know what else she did with her life. And I did need to get rid of some books. Some went to the library and some to Goodwill. I also got rid of my Dilbert books. I might pitch more into the charity bin later. I don’t have much of anything with Tom Cruise but I did keep my copies of Lethal Weapon movies. I’m a bit conflicted because of what a ginormous creep Mel Gibson turned out to be. I generally feel that life is too short to put up with crap from the excessively pious, and the homophobic. Most of the time I only buy stuff I am going to read over, and over again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/74 "2012-11-09T11:17:14Z")
I read the Card screed and I found myself pitying Card not hating him. He’s locked himself into self-delusion. He can’t accept the reality that people chose Obama - there’s just no way he can believe people did that. So his whole argument is that the evil liberal media conspired to lie to the voters and the only reason people voted for Obama was because they didn’t know The Truth about him. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/75 "2012-11-09T16:48:10Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > No, they’re using their fame to give their opinion a wider broadcast. The weight assigned to it is the responsibility of each member of the audience. Ideally, they would use the same criteria they’d use to evaluate the opinions of anyone else; some actors, etc., just like non-famous people, are knowledgeable or insightful in certain areas outside their working field. Do you think that nobody should ever listen to your opinion about anything other than your own job? Sorry, I meant to address this too yesterday. That’s a good point - people are responsible for the weight they give opinions, and considering the source is part of that. As for listening to my opinion, people do that at their own risk, too. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/76 "2012-11-09T16:50:03Z")
_Ender’s Game_ reads as though the author read _Lord of the Flies_ and thought it was a description of utopia. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/77 "2012-11-09T16:54:01Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > _Ender’s Game_ reads as though the author read _Lord of the Flies_ and thought it was a description of utopia. ahem: > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I’ll confess now to being prejudiced on the grounds that I always thought Ender’s Game was a shit Heinlein/Lord of the Flies fusion. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/78 "2012-11-09T16:57:08Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > ahem: Sorry, missed that! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/79 "2012-11-09T17:01:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I read the Card screed and I found myself pitying Card not hating him. He’s locked himself into self-delusion. He can’t accept the reality that people chose Obama - there’s just no way he can believe people did that. So his whole argument is that the evil liberal media conspired to lie to the voters and the only reason people voted for Obama was because they didn’t know The Truth about him. He reminds me of [this account](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/11/06/us/politics/live-election-results.html#sha=735be775b) of the scene at Romney’s election night gathering: > [@](#): > > Now that the electoral tide has turned against Mitt Romney, the crowd here at the campaign’selection night party has turned against CNN. > > Every time the network is turned on, audience members at the Boston Convention Center chant for a change of channel. “Fox! Fox! Fox!” they yell… Once someone retreats into the right-wingosphere fantasy cocoon, they forget that reality exists, and get pissed off if you try to unplug them from the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342/80 "2012-11-09T17:06:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve read a lot of Jerry Pournelle, bitter\* paleoconservative though he is. (In fact he is perhaps the rarest creature in America, a paleocon with a brain.) > > - For an idea of what I mean by bitter, see [The Prince.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkenberg%27s_Legion) (Co-authored in part by S.M. Stirling.) The story of the Helots’ rebellion on Sparta is, as Pournelle states in the foreword, a study of Maoist low-intensity conflict from the POV of the state, i.e., how to defeat it. The Helots’ _casus belli_ is that on the planet Sparta, they have no votes – Sparta having an elaborate constitution designed by political scientists, so complex that even the heir to the throne once remarks, “I’d hate to have to explain how it works,” but one feature is that citizenship must be earned, by admission to a “phratry” and militia service, among other things; it is effectively impossible for first- or second-generation immigrants, of whom there are vast numbers. Notably – and quite preposterously, in light of the real-life history of struggles for franchise expansion – the Helots do not seem to have any **actual** grievance or suffer any socioeconomic disabilities just because of their exclusion from political participation. (Their only apparent ground for resentment is that many of them lived a cushy welfare-state existence on Earth (where “citizen” means “welfare bum” and the antonym is “taxpayer”) and then got deported to a planet where they are expected to work for a living; but none of the Helots’ leaders are making any promises to do anything about that.) In any case, the Helots are portrayed as Pure Evil – their leaders are cynical and amoral and power-mad, and all their followers are dupes and brutes. In the climax, there is a massive street-battle in the capital, in which the middle-class shopkeepers join forces with the elite and slaughter the lumpenprole Helots almost to the last man. The Middle and the High united against the Low in an utterly victorious war-to-the-knife. The pages of that scene fairly drip with Pournelle’s liberated semen. Jerry Pournelle is the kind of paleoconservative who does seem to have a problem with democracy as such (and probably laments the fall of Apartheid – even, one suspects, the fall of the British Empire). Yeah, I read _The Prince_ recently and then I had to read some Che after that just to get my brain back to square one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-y-orson-scott-card/640342.md?page=5)