# I pit you guys... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603 "2009-04-19T08:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/61 "2009-04-19T23:49:01Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Whiny shitheads like the OP crack me up. I’d say that’s a perfect example of the kind of unseemly behavior that the OP was complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/62 "2009-04-19T23:59:45Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Sure, but how many people on this board refer to themselves as fiscally conservative and socially liberal? Does that mean that they all want to follow Republican fiscal policies? Gosh, I hope not. Seems to me that Republican fiscal policies these days consist of one item: tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/63 "2009-04-20T00:12:14Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Gosh, I hope not. Seems to me that Republican fiscal policies these days consist of one item: tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. Also massive increases in defense spending, because that’s the only area in which the government can create jobs. And you forgot tax cuts for the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/64 "2009-04-20T00:19:52Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Gosh, I hope not. Seems to me that Republican fiscal policies these days consist of one item: tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. What are you, some kind of commie? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/65 "2009-04-20T00:24:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > See, I don’t even know how to argue with you. If you really believe that saying it was right to go into Iraq is like saying it was right to exterminate Jews, then I don’t even know what to say. I understand how it must feel when you cannot reasonably defend your position. I, on the other hand, have no such problem because my position is clear, simple, consistent and coherent: It is wrong to invade countries, to kill people, to use violence (except in self defence, obviously). It is wrong no matter who does it. It is wrong whether the country’s name starts with a consonant (like Poland) or with a vowel (like Iraq). It is wrong, flat-out wromg. It is immoral to kill people for your own benefit. It is immoral to use violence to achieve your own ends. The only justifiable use of violence is self defense. Aggression can never be justified. That is extremely simple position which is extremely easy for me to defend. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/66 "2009-04-20T00:27:29Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Bill O’Reilly constantly bashes Obama, and praised Bush while he was in office. Oh come on, **Captain Carrot** , Bill O is just sharing his unbiased opinion with the folks. He has a constitutional right, and someone needs to speak on behalf of corporate America. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/67 "2009-04-20T00:27:41Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > I’d say that’s a perfect example of the kind of unseemly behavior that the OP was complaining about. I’d say you’re the kind of idiot conservodrone I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/68 "2009-04-20T00:36:36Z")
> [@Ocean\_Annie](#): > > Oh come on, **Captain Carrot** , Bill O is just sharing his unbiased opinion with the folks. He has a constitutional right, and someone needs to speak on behalf of corporate America. I can’t tell if you’re serious. Poe’s Law applies to more than evangelical Christianity, it seems. > [@askeptic](#): > > I’d say you’re the kind of idiot conservodrone I was talking about. And you would be wrong. Your first post may have been accurate, but it was also abrasively phrased and antagonistically presented. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/69 "2009-04-20T00:44:26Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Also massive increases in defense spending, … Well, that’s the thing. The first round of tax cuts in the Bush presidency took place before 9/11. OK fine. Good idea, bad idea, whatever, we’ll see. All of a sudden, we’re at war. Then, barely a year later, they started _another_ war. Any political party that was truly fiscally responsible would have gone, “Oops, sorry guys. We gotta pay for these two wars somehow,” and immediately rescinded the tax cuts. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/70 "2009-04-20T01:16:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Your first post may have been accurate, but it was also abrasively phrased and antagonistically presented. I don’t walk on water or turn it into wine either. After the last eight years my heart ain’t exactly bleeding crocodile tears… As for the OP, he complains about lack of respect then goes on to add that anyone who thinks different than him lacks critical thinking skills. The irony…it burns. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/71 "2009-04-20T01:57:35Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I understand how it must feel when you cannot reasonably defend your position. I, on the other hand, have no such problem because my position is clear, simple, consistent and coherent: It is wrong to invade countries, to kill people, to use violence (except in self defence, obviously). It is wrong no matter who does it. It is wrong whether the country’s name starts with a consonant (like Poland) or with a vowel (like Iraq). It is wrong, flat-out wromg. It is immoral to kill people for your own benefit. It is immoral to use violence to achieve your own ends. The only justifiable use of violence is self defense. Aggression can never be justified. That is extremely simple position which is extremely easy for me to defend. Ok, I didn’t want to get into this discussion, but you give me no choice. You’re right, you have an extremely simple position which is extremely easy for you to defend. Unfortunately, as is common with extremely simple positions, it falls apart when confronted with reality, and forces your logic into absurd results. First of all, I don’t believe that it’s always wrong to invade countries. It often is, of course, but while we’re bringing in the World War II example, while it was wrong for Germany to invade Poland, it wasn’t wrong for England and France to declare war on Germany when Poland was attacked. These declarations of war weren’t wrong, even though Germany wasn’t threatening either England or France, and both countries probably would have been safe in the short term had they stayed out of it. They were both fighting in defense of their ally Poland, and it’s certainly ok to fight a war in defense of an ally. Beyond that, I’d argue that it can be ok to invade for humanitarian reasons or to prevent genocide, like NATO did in Kosovo, and the UN did in Somalia. Further, I’d argue that there are times that it’s acceptable to launch a preventive or preemptive invasion, like the Six Day war of 1967. It was clear that Egypt was preparing to invade Israel, and so Israel’s preemptive attack on Egypt was justifiable. Beyond that, regardless of whether the Iraq war was justified or not, and even if it wasn’t, it’s even more wrong to think all evil is equal. Even if invading Iraq was wrong, invading a country to overthrow a dictator who oppressed his own people and threatened his neighbor is much lower on the scale of evil than attempting to commit genocide and intentionally murder about 11 million defenseless people for no other reason than a racist ideology. I’m sorry that your extremely simple position makes you unable to see that. ---
**Author:** ![Ocean\_Annie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8797f3/32.png) [@Ocean\_Annie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ocean_Annie)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/72 "2009-04-20T02:23:22Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > But you guys are so so far left, you see everything justtotheright as a crazy Buchanan love fest. I hate it, since I have opinions that disagree. When I first started coming around here, I was introduced to the “Bush Doctrine” where within 8 posts, someone would find a way to blame GHWB. No debate, no fact checking - just knee-jerk slams against the (then) president. > > It’s too bad - I’ve been intimated from participating in many debates on this board, since I know my position will be unpopular and ridiculed. There are many posters with a conservative or libertarian perspective who post in GD. There needs to be two opposing views for an argument and GD has rules that keep it focused and civil. I think different views and opinions are a plus in a forum for debates. > [@Sateryn76](#): > > I guess what I see around here that is disheartening is the assumption that everyone who thinks differently about liberal viewpoints is not only incorrect, but stupid trash… I have Hugo Chavez hanging on my wall but never think of people as trash; however, I have heard commentators on Fox News refer to people as trash and make other judgmental and belittling comments about people with opposing views and ideology. Maybe you are focusing on the wrong group. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/73 "2009-04-20T02:29:49Z")
But the main problem with the war in Iraq is that our priority SHOULD have been Afghanistan. Now the Taliban is back for the most part, Bin Laden’s still out there, and it’s all for nothing. (At least, that’s the way I always saw it. Sadam being gone is a good thing-but Bin Laden should have been #1 priority.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/74 "2009-04-20T02:50:16Z")
I feel the OP’s pain. (SDMB Rabid Rightwing Conservative Association, by popular acclaim, all rights reserved) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/75 "2009-04-20T02:58:25Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > What gets me is not so much the debating (which I love) but the knee-jerk hate - see the anti-“tea bag” protest thread for an example. So how should we react to people who advocate armed revolution, the assassination of a sitting president and who proudly say things like [“nothing better than a dead liberal”](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpzeI8sgIHU) (the 2nd woman who speaks)? Here, have a cookie? It’s just another bit of high hypocrisy from conservatives/right-wingers. If Bush did it or the right does it, it’s ok. If the left reacts to it/whatever with scorn, derision or anger, we’re the bad guys. So far, our current president hasn’t done a thing to warrant the hatred thrown at him other than be a Democrat and be black. Get back to me when he starts a war based on lies and gets people killed for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/76 "2009-04-20T03:11:59Z")
Actually, by global (not American nor English-speaking-world) standards, this Board leans **right.** ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/77 "2009-04-20T03:42:12Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Okay - why? Honest question…I just don’t how Fox is a water-carrier for the right. I don’t see it, and I listen to all types of media. This is an accepted truth around here, and I don’t know why. Because Fox has frequently been caught fabricating facts to suit their conservative agenda. I don’t mean just showing a bias, I mean bald-faced lies that are intended to mislead for the purpose of furthering their right wing ideology. For example, their reporting on the turnout at the recent Tea Party protests: Fox was caught in the act inflating crowd estimates by a factor three times an already generous guess. Check out the [video of Fox News host Neil Cavuto at a Tea Party in Sacramento](http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001168/). The live feed before the broadcast caught him talking to his producer: > [@](#): > > **CAVUTO** : Any estimates on how many people are here? > > **PRODUCER** : No, we’re trying to get… > > **CAVUTO** : **There’s gotta’ be 5,000**. I mean the cops aren’t going to tell us, and we’ve been trying to get ahold of the PR person to give us their number, **but I think 5,000**. You can say it’s starting at 5,000 [unintelligble, but sounds like “and maybe it’s more.”]. Then, less than ten minutes later in his live, on-air segment, he tripled that estimate: > [@](#): > > **CAVUTO** : I know you cover a lot of these things Shep, so you’re probably better at estimating crowd sizes than I am. They were expecting 5,000 here, **it’s got to be easily double, if not triple that.** And that is just one recent example of why Fox News reports should be taken with with a Bonneville-sized grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/78 "2009-04-20T03:51:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because Fox has frequently been caught fabricating facts to suit their conservative agenda. The NY times has also been caught publishing fabricated articles. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/79 "2009-04-20T04:04:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, by global (not American nor English-speaking-world) standards, this Board leans **right.** Its our planet, the rest of them just live here. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/80 "2009-04-20T04:08:01Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > The NY times has also been caught publishing fabricated articles. OK. Cite them. There have been some faked articles, which have resulted in the firing of the reporters, but give me some articles that faked a position for political puposes. I know about Judith Martin writing BS about the Iraqis having WMD, so skip that, though I’d expect you’d omit that anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=5)