# I pit you guys... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603 "2009-04-19T08:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/81 "2009-04-20T04:14:56Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/national/11PAPE.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/national/11PAPE.html) > [@](#): > > And he used these techniques to write falsely about emotionally charged moments in recent history, from the deadly sniper attacks in suburban Washington to the anguish of families grieving for loved ones killed in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/82 "2009-04-20T04:17:08Z")
Here’s the Cliff’s Notes version of what I believe: Republicans and Conservatives aren’t synonyms. Democrats and Liberals aren’t synonyms. I’m socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I allign myself with the Democrats because I believe that the Republicans are neither of the above two. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/83 "2009-04-20T04:19:08Z")
If you do as I say The world will be better So do as I say. (…insert sound of ancient frog splashing here…) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/84 "2009-04-20T04:42:21Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I was so excited…being a reader of the Straight Dope for many years, I finally discovered the message boards about 2.3 years ago. I have read hundreds of hours of debate and cultural interest and just smart stuff…it was the first time I’d seen such good debate since my mom died… > > But you guys are so so far left, you see everything justtotheright as a crazy Buchanan love fest. I hate it, since I have opinions that disagree. When I first started coming around here, I was introduced to the “Bush Doctrine” where within 8 posts, someone would find a way to blame GHWB. No debate, no fact checking - just knee-jerk slams against the (then) president. 8? It was usually 2 at the most. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/85 "2009-04-20T05:15:03Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/national/11PAPE.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/11/national/11PAPE.html) Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![keturah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e95f7d/32.png) [@keturah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keturah)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/86 "2009-04-20T05:42:13Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > Still waiting. So you don’t think that the NY Times published these articles with a political purpose? Why would this guy get by unnoticed in all the time he was writing? Could it be because he was playing to their political agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/87 "2009-04-20T06:29:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Actually, by global (not American nor English-speaking-world) standards, this Board leans **right.** Oh really? Would a Syrian see this board as right-wing? Would an Indian? Would the Chinese consider this board conservative? How about the Belorussians? Or does “global” simply mean “western and central European”? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/88 "2009-04-20T07:48:15Z")
Pretty much. For some reason a large portion of the American left seems to think that western and central Europe are the very epitome of human civilization, nevermind the fact that those countries hew to most of the same social conventions that we do, and generally they find Americans to be uncouth, crass and ill-behaved - which is ironic, given that Americans were much more polite, civil and well-behaved during the country’s more conservative past. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/89 "2009-04-20T08:20:48Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Clothahump: Liberals grunt grunt suxxors… > [@Clothahump](#): > > 8? It was usually 2 at the most. > [@askeptic](#): > > Starving Artist: [wall o text] things were better when the Beave was in charge… > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Pretty much. For some reason a large portion of the American left seems to think that western and central Europe are the very epitome of human civilization, nevermind the fact that those countries hew to most of the same social conventions that we do, and generally they find Americans to be uncouth, crass and ill-behaved - which is ironic, given that Americans were much more polite, civil and well-behaved during the country’s more conservative past. Prophetic? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/90 "2009-04-20T08:32:11Z")
Historic. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/91 "2009-04-20T08:32:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Isn’t some of it, like the saying, “Even Hercules doesn’t fight against two.”, though? There are some views, that, if you express them, like that we were right to go into Iraq, or that we should have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, or that the designated hitter rule is a good idea, for example, that no matter how good a debater you are or how well you lay out your argument, you’ll have enough people arguing with you that you just can’t keep up. Hercules could beat a hundred if his fights weren’t in real time. I’ve taken unpopular positions before. Unlike Hercules, you don’t have to meet each “punch” as it is thrown. IME if you express an unpopular opinion you might find that you get a storm of aggressive contrary views expressed. Just wait an hour. Go to bed. Whatever. When you come back you’ll probably find a lot of posts waiting. Read them and there may be (no matter how many posters have replied) five or usually less good solid points made against you. Of those, people who agree with you (there’s almost alway some) will probably already have dealt with a few. Compose a post in response that meets the outstanding points and/or re-inforces the rebuttals already made by those that agree with you. Take your time. If you’re right and can express your viewpoint and have cites to to back your facts, you have nothing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/92 "2009-04-20T08:44:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > First of all, I don’t believe that it’s always wrong to invade countries. I disagree with that. The UN charter, of which the USA is a signatory disagrees with that. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It often is, of course, but while we’re bringing in the World War II example, while it was wrong for Germany to invade Poland, it wasn’t wrong for England and France to declare war on Germany when Poland was attacked. These declarations of war weren’t wrong, even though Germany wasn’t threatening either England or France, and both countries probably would have been safe in the short term had they stayed out of it. They were both fighting in defense of their ally Poland, and it’s certainly ok to fight a war in defense of an ally. Except that (1) I agree that using violence in self defense and/or the defense of a party who has been attacked is a legitimate use of force and (2) America had not been attacked nor came in the defense of anyone being attacked. America attacked Iraq for its own selfish reasons, in contravention of the UN charter and with total disregard for international law and order, world peace or human life. America’s invasion of Iraq has resulted in untold death and misery and the destruction of property. All this just so America’s strategic interests could be preserved. It was wrong. It is unjustifiable. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Beyond that, regardless of whether the Iraq war was justified or not, and even if it wasn’t, it’s even more wrong to think all evil is equal. Even if invading Iraq was wrong, invading a country to overthrow a dictator who oppressed his own people and threatened his neighbor is much lower on the scale of evil than attempting to commit genocide and intentionally murder about 11 million defenseless people for no other reason than a racist ideology. I’m sorry that your extremely simple position makes you unable to see that. The invasion of Iraq was not done to save any Iraqis from Saddam Hussein. The invasion of Iraq was done to preserve American interests. If America cared in the least about the Iraqi people America would not have started the war. And, as if it was not clear enough that America cares nothing about Iraqi life or welfare, the fact is that the invasion has resulted in hundreds of thousands dead and injured, hundreds of thousands displaced and made refugees internally and externally. What has America done to alleviate that human suffering? Pretty much nothing. How many Iraqi refugees has the USA taken in? The fact is that America has caused a huge humanitarian crisis and has done little or nothing to alleviate it. So please do not try to feed me your bullshit propaganda that it was done to help the Iraqi people. It is bullshit and any intelligent person knows it’s a lie. This is not an issue where both sides might have a valid point of view and both deserve equal time. This is like creationism where one side is flat out wrong and spreading lies and they need to be exposed and contradicted every single time they do it lest someone might think their position has any validity. The Invasion of Iraq was evil. Torture is evil. Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, renditions, secret prisons, secret phone taps, the abridgement of civil right, these are all evil and they should be exposed and condemned. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/93 "2009-04-20T08:50:50Z")
I could cite Fox News right-wing bias and Obama bashing all day. Here’s just a few from memory: [Terrorist Fist Jab!](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xScZN2-Z_Sg) [Obama’s Baby Mama !!111OMGLOL](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvZEZL2LmA8) [Hilarious joke about killing Obama](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-G6mxLuWQ) [Fox Tries to make McCain look younger](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPoaovzD6x4) The president of “fair and balanced” Fox news is [Roger Ailes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ailes), for fucks sake. Not to mention it’s owned by noted liberal activist [Rupert Freaking Murdoch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert_Murdoch). If you actually believe Fox is a “legitimate news source” **Sateryn76** , then you are too damn ignorant to be fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/94 "2009-04-20T09:44:48Z")
It’s going to take a few years for many Americans to acknowledge if there can be such a thing as a reasoned right-of-center viewpoint. Really, I’m sorry, but I just can’t. I was raised in the GOP, Reaganite Religious Right; I read _National Review_ for years & still have a certain affection for William F. Buckley & Florence King; & I used to think there should be a healthy respect for ideas from either side of the aisle. I thought John McCain was a strong candidate–until the weird endgame with Sarah Palin. But who gets to sit on either side of the aisle is an arbitrary convention. And when the apparent standard-setters of “right-wing” are completely against anything arbitrarily “left-wing” & call moderate craft unionists or advocates of progressive income tax Leninists, when a former Speaker of the (US) House condemns a negative income tax because it’s “welfare,” well, I wonder how closely it’s approaching the point where defending right-wing ideas is like defending the Nazi inner circle, or witch-hunters in West Africa. If defending the right means defending little more than superstition, corruption, & inanity, what’s the point? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/95 "2009-04-20T11:17:33Z")
> [@keturah](#): > > So you don’t think that the NY Times published these articles with a political purpose? How does this excuse the demonstrated right wing ideology of Fox News? “All the kids were doing it” is not much of a defense. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/96 "2009-04-20T14:15:18Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > Fox News is not an army of jack-booted thugs, but a legitimate news source. If you actually look at Fox News reportng over time, you’ll see that it has many of the characteristics you are complaining about seeing from the “other side” here on this board. Fox often has a headline like “Worst possible thing ever by the Left” about some fairly mundane, centrist decision buy a fairly centrist or center-right politician like Clinton or Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/97 "2009-04-20T14:28:53Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > If you actually look at Fox News reportng over time, you’ll see that it has many of the characteristics you are complaining about seeing from the “other side” here on this board. Fox often has a headline like “Worst possible thing ever by the Left” about some fairly mundane, centrist decision buy a fairly centrist or center-right politician like Clinton or Obama. But at least they’re reporting it. I am intelligent enough to ignore the commentary (O’Reilly isn’t a news source, he is a commentator). CNN/NYT/NPR in many cases simply don’t report things that they think aren’t important - so there’s more room to report on Obama’s new puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/98 "2009-04-20T15:05:20Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > But at least they’re reporting it. I am intelligent enough to ignore the commentary (O’Reilly isn’t a news source, he is a commentator). CNN/NYT/NPR in many cases simply don’t report things that they think aren’t important - so there’s more room to report on Obama’s new puppy. But the thing is, what they’re reporting in that case is a non-story. If Senator Reid votes for a gun-related amendment to a bill that has moderate support from both sides of the aisle, nobody cares, because it really doesn’t matter. But according to Fox, it’s the Worst Thing Ever[sup]TM[/sup] and must be trumpeted as a symbol of the left’s evil. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/99 "2009-04-20T15:15:26Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > But at least they’re reporting it. I am intelligent enough to ignore the commentary (O’Reilly isn’t a news source, he is a commentator). CNN/NYT/NPR in many cases simply don’t report things that they think aren’t important - so there’s more room to report on Obama’s new puppy. Or Limbaugh’s entire CPAC speech–CNN isn’t left-leaning so much as dumb-leaning, as far as I can tell. Look, I feel your pain, I really do. I’m a gun-owning flag-flying Obama-voter in a Northeast college town, I get shit from both sides. It boils down to “if you ignore the 5-10 spastics and social defectives who dominate their respective positions with sheer force of verbiage, the SDMB is a pretty good place to debate.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/100 "2009-04-20T16:03:44Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Sure, but how many people on this board refer to themselves as fiscally conservative and socially liberal? Does that mean that they all want to follow Republican fiscal policies? Well,they talk of fiscal sanity while doing the opposite. If that is good enough for you. Many libs do support a relative conservative fiscal policy. That in no way is the repub stance. The repubs are budget busting, deficits don’t count ,remove the regulation band of merry thieves. it is about what they do ,not what they say to get elected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=6)