# I pit you guys... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603 "2009-04-19T08:21:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/121 "2009-04-20T22:41:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Fine, have it your way. Hate my fucking country all you want. I can’t fucking do this anymore. What? Defend the indefensible? About time you got a clue. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/122 "2009-04-20T23:00:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Fine, have it your way. Hate my fucking country all you want. I can’t fucking do this anymore. You couldn’t do it from the beginning. You have not been able to explain why America should be allowed to start wars and kill people but the rest of the world should not do the same to America. You want the rest of the world to accept that America can do whatever it wants but not the others. And you have not been able to explain why this should be so. It is not a matter of hating America as much as of being consistent and coherent. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/123 "2009-04-20T23:05:54Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Quispiam huic thread est questus pwned in duos lingua. **Centurionis mirabilis** potus osculare meos partes posteriores et succionare meo pito. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/124 "2009-04-20T23:13:24Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Are you responding to what I wrote or to the voices in your head? Because I can’t tell. You made a joke. Very good for a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/125 "2009-04-20T23:32:33Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > You couldn’t do it from the beginning. You have not been able to explain why America should be allowed to start wars and kill people but the rest of the world should not do the same to America. You want the rest of the world to accept that America can do whatever it wants but not the others. And you have not been able to explain why this should be so. Well, first of all, I don’t believe that. America doesn’t have the right to do whatever it wants. You have to look case by case. If America, or any other country, is going around conquering countries and annexing them, then that’s wrong. But that’s not what’s going on. America doesn’t do that. When we went into Iraq, it was to overthrow Sadaam and help set the Iraqis free, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Now we obviously did a rotten job, and there’s plenty of blame to go around there, but our impulses were good. And if any other country went into Iraq to do the same thing, I’d defend that too. The reason “the rest of the world should not do the same to America” is the same reason they shouldn’t do it to France, or Spain, or Britain, or so on…because we’re not a violent repressive dictatorship. We’re one of the good guys, most simply put. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/126 "2009-04-20T23:37:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When we went into Iraq, it was to overthrow Sadaam and help set the Iraqis free, and there’s nothing wrong with that. What planet do you live on? That wasn’t the reason we went into Iraq. Go try to find a quote from an Administration or military official from before the war that states anything like that. That is an after the fact rationalization because we failed to find any WMD’s that were an imminent threat to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/127 "2009-04-20T23:42:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, first of all, I don’t believe that. America doesn’t have the right to do whatever it wants. You have to look case by case. If America, or any other country, is going around conquering countries and annexing them, then that’s wrong. But that’s not what’s going on. America doesn’t do that. When we went into Iraq, it was to overthrow Sadaam and help set the Iraqis free, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Now we obviously did a rotten job, and there’s plenty of blame to go around there, but our impulses were good. And if any other country went into Iraq to do the same thing, I’d defend that too. America went into Iraq because it claimed Saddam had WMDs and was a terrorist linked to 9/11. (The oil helped too.) If Saddam had let the UN weapons inspectors back in just before the invasion, the war would never have happened. If the US is so interested in ‘freeing countries’ why doesn’t it rescue the Burmese from a military dictatorship? Why doesn’t it stop Mugabe destroying democracy, starving the population of Zimababwe and unleashing a chiolera epidemic? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/128 "2009-04-20T23:43:18Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] You have not been able to explain why America should be allowed to start wars and kill people but the rest of the world should not do the same to America. You want the rest of the world to accept that America can do whatever it wants but not the others. And you have not been able to explain why this should be so. [/QUOTE] Out of curiosity who said that only American should ‘be allowed’ to start wars or kill people? Allowed by who? Also, who said that the rest of the world has to accept whatever America wants? Did I miss that part (seriously…if CA said it, can you give the post number)? The reality of course is that it’s the SECURITY COUNSEL who gets to decide what they want to do and shoves it down the rest of the worlds throat…of which America is simply one member of 5. America get’s to do what it wants for pretty much the same reasons that the Brits, France (and by extension most of Western Europe), Russia and China get to do whatever they want within the same parameters…whereas nations like Iraq, Iran, North Korea, etc etc don’t. They step out of line at their own peril. It’s not right, it’s not fair…but it’s reality and has been so since the formation of the United Nations. Powerful nations act with impunity…weak nations do not, unless they happen to have a friend who is among the big 5. C’est la vie… -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/129 "2009-04-20T23:54:20Z")
[QUOTE=glee] America went into Iraq because it claimed Saddam had WMDs and was a terrorist linked to 9/11. [/QUOTE] America invaded Iraq on the pretense that Iraq was a threat due to it’s supposed possession of WMD and it’s links to terrorists…not because of supposed links to who was responsible for 9/11. The 9/11 angle was subtly played by the previous administration (who never, afaik, came right out and claimed Saddam et al were directly linked), but this was never even one of the smoke screen primary reasons for the invasion. > [@](#): > > (The oil helped too.) The oil of course was the sole and primary reason for the invasion (I figure you said this tongue in cheek but just in case). The US wanted to secure what was and is a primary strategic material from what was felt to be an unstable regime, and to impose a new regime that would (in theory :eek:) be more amiable to the US in the future. > [@](#): > > If the US is so interested in ‘freeing countries’ why doesn’t it rescue the Burmese from a military dictatorship? Because the US does things overseas that are ultimately in the best interests of our country. Why doesn’t Britain and the EU do something about it? You guys have a military and supposedly better motives…also, many of the worst hell holes out there came from your playful colonial period. So…why don’t YOU do something about them since us cynical American’s only do stuff in our best interests? > [@](#): > > Why doesn’t it stop Mugabe destroying democracy, starving the population of Zimababwe and unleashing a chiolera epidemic? Good question. Again, why doesn’t the EU do something about it? You have a military, right? It’s fairly close to your shores. Africa is a mess mainly because of European colonialism. So…why don’t you fix the problem? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/130 "2009-04-20T23:54:28Z")
> [@glee](#): > > If Saddam had let the UN weapons inspectors back in just before the invasion, the war would never have happened. He did. Or were you being ironic? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/131 "2009-04-20T23:58:39Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] He did. [/QUOTE] And by that point it made no difference…Bush’s mind was made up and his plans were set in concrete. Assuming it ever WOULD have made a difference once he started getting traction on Iraq in the first place…which I doubt. I think once Bush got any kind of traction at all Iraq’s fate was sealed…the only thing that MIGHT have changed events were if Saddam had tucked tail and fled to some other country. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/132 "2009-04-21T01:13:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You made a joke. Very good for a conservative. I’m a conservative because I think you’re a dumbass? If that’s the criteria we’re using, this board is probably a lot more conservative than anybody thought. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/133 "2009-04-21T01:39:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yes it is: > > “The prince, in short, ought not to quit good courses if he can help it, but should know how to follow evil courses if he must.”-Machiavelli > > “I say that justice is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger”-Thrasymachus > > A thing may look specious in theory, and yet be ruinous in practice; a thing may look evil in theory, and yet be in practice excellent- Edmund Burke > > And since you like Latin, Horace- Exitus acta probat. Did… did you just cite Machiavelli as a moral authority? ---
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/134 "2009-04-21T01:51:15Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > I’m a conservative because I think you’re a dumbass? If that’s the criteria we’re using, this board is probably a lot more conservative than anybody thought. It seems to me that Lord Ashtar’s response to gonzomax has disproved the OP’s premise of a SDMB “liberal bias”. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/135 "2009-04-21T02:50:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Did… did you just cite Machiavelli as a moral authority? Machiavelli was a major influence on western political thought, and is often considered the first modern political theorist. He was one of the first to seperate political morality from personal morality, introduced the idea of “reason of state”, was one of the first advocates for modern republicanism, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/136 "2009-04-21T03:08:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > We’re one of the good guys, most simply put. We are now, thank goodness. So why is the right so upset? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/137 "2009-04-21T03:19:43Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > It’s not so much the debate - it’s the hate, and I don’t see that coming from the more-right or centrist posters on this board. Then you’re not paying much attention. A fine example of “selective perception” if ever I’ve seen one. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/138 "2009-04-21T03:33:40Z")
It’s that famous right-wing cognitive dissonance. Such as, to hell with all the goodwill President Obama is obviously spreading around the world. HE SHOOK HUGO CHEVEZ’S HAND!! AND ACCEPTED A BOOK!! THAT HE’S _ACTUALLY GOING TO READ_!!! Holy fuckin’ fuckin’ fuckin’ hell! And an OH MY GOD TOO! IMPEACH!! IMPEACH!! BLAH! BLAH! BLAH! GIBBER! GIBBER! GIBBER! FROTH! FROTH! FROTH! Btw, while we’re on the topic, I absolutely loved President Obama’s [response](http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/obama-begins-mocking-gop-criticism-of-his-international-outreach/) to the GOP Senator John Ensign’s brain-damaged criticism: [QUOTE=Smart Guy In Office] “Venezuela is a country whose defense budget is probably 1/600th of the United States’. They own Citgo. It’s unlikely that as a consequence of me shaking hands or having a polite conversation with Mr. Chavez that we are endangering the strategic interests of the United States. I don’t think anybody can find any evidence that that would do so. Even within this imaginative crowd, I think you would be hard-pressed to paint a scenario in which U.S. interests would be damaged as a consequence of us having a more constructive relationship with Venezuela.” [/QUOTE] Score! It’s so nice to have a grownup in the highest office again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/139 "2009-04-21T04:13:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > When we went into Iraq, it was to overthrow Sadaam and help set the Iraqis free, No it wasn’t. It was because the fucking moron expresident lied about Saddam posing a danger. The fact he hasn’t been shipped of for a war crimes tribunal for his torture is the biggest insult against American dignity. Americans don’t believe in justice, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603/140 "2009-04-21T07:45:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, first of all, I don’t believe that. America doesn’t have the right to do whatever it wants. You have to look case by case. If America, or any other country, is going around conquering countries and annexing them, then that’s wrong. But that’s not what’s going on. America doesn’t do that. When we went into Iraq, it was to overthrow Sadaam and help set the Iraqis free, Ha! Nobody believes that and, even it it were true, which it is not, it is still in contravention of the UN charter and of international law and order. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > and there’s nothing wrong with that. There is plenty wrong with that. There is plenty wrong with countries invading other countries to impose friendly regimes. The USA does not have that right any more than the Islamists have the right to try to impose an Islamist regime on America. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Now we obviously did a rotten job, and there’s plenty of blame to go around there, That’s an understatement. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > but our impulses were good. Bullshit. And tell that to the innocent dead, maimed, displaced. And if the impulses were so good why has America done such a rotten job of providing humanitarian help for the victims of the crisis it has caused? Why is it not helping the injured, displaced, those who lost their homes? Why are otehr countries taking the brunt of that? Why is it that other countries are taking the load of providing humanitarian relief for the victims of the disaster America has caused? This fact alone proves how little America cares about Iraqi life or well-being and that any declarations to the contrary are pure bullshit lies. The intentions were not good and only a fool would believe that. The facts prove that America does not give a rat’s ass about the Iraqi people. But even if the intention had been good, America did not have the right to invade and the results are a good reason why. It has caused more damage than it said it was trying to fix. Countries invading other countries is not a good way to solve problems. That is why the UN charter prohibits such actions and the wisdom of that policy has been proven by the fact that America has caused a huge humanitarian crisis by violating it. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > And if any other country went into Iraq to do the same thing, I’d defend that too. > > The reason “the rest of the world should not do the same to America” is the same reason they shouldn’t do it to France, or Spain, or Britain, or so on…because we’re not a violent repressive dictatorship. We’re one of the good guys, most simply put. Where exactly can I find the list of “good guys” and “bad guys” in the UN charter? Because I cannot find it. Where did Iraq agree that the USA were the good guys and that gave them the right to intervene in Iraq? Or is it in the Bible where I can find that? Gawd 'elp us against the “good guys” because they are so convinced of the righteousness of their cause that they will do anything, including killing, torture and destruction to spread their faith. I do not care if it is in the name of democracy, Christianity or Islam, in the end they are all the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-you-guys/493603.md?page=8)