# I pit Zionism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840 "2025-05-27T02:30:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/181 "2025-05-28T14:29:33Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Hiding behind the Holocaust is especially obscene coming from a faction that purposely herded Palestinians into a confined ghetto and is now firing indiscriminately into the captive population (actually “indiscriminately” would be an improvement over what’s happening now). That “ghetto” as you call it borders with Egypt. Why does Egypt keep them closed in? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/182 "2025-05-28T14:30:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is probably the slimiest aspect of Zionism, the knee-jerk twisting of even mild criticism of Israel into an accusation of anti-Semitism and a desire to pursue another Holocaust Lying about the entire history of Zionism to twist it into bloodthirsty racist arab-hating cleansing ideology is not “mild criticism of Israel”. Maybe if you ever offered any kind of valid criticism of Israel, mild or not, rather than spewing antisemitic conspiracy theories, you wouldn’t be accused of antisemitism. Again, here’s what you _actually_ said, and then, you lying sack of shit, tried to pass this off as “mild criticism”: > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Israel has always wanted an ethnostate in the Levant since biblical times. What the fuck kind of conspiracy theory is this? I know you’re historically illiterate, but for the vast majority of the period between biblical times and 1948, there _was_ no Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/183 "2025-05-28T14:31:36Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > actually “indiscriminately” would be an improvement over what’s happening now Other than virtue signaling your hatred of Israel, what is this even supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/184 "2025-05-28T14:33:39Z")
I think it’s a little unreasonable when people ask why other Arab nations don’t take the Palestinians. Why not the US or Italy? Also, taking them in (assuming they want to go) would be enabling the cleansing. Finally, displaced Palestinians caused political instability in Egypt and Jordan, and was a causal factor in the Lebanese civil war. I don’t think it’s as simple as “Egypt could just homestead 2 million Gazans” ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/185 "2025-05-28T15:00:29Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The miracle of the thought-stopping phrase “anti-Semitism” is that Israel never needs to hear criticism by civilized people, because all criticism of Israel is by definition barbaric and genocidal. Neat trick! Speaking as a Jew who frequently objects to Zionists weaponizing anti-Semitism in order to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel, that is NOT what is happening here. The claim that “Israel has wanted an ethnostate in the Levant since Biblical times” actually is textbook anti-Semitism, and if you don’t want to come across as anti-Semitic, you need to educate yourself further and stop making ignorant statements. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/186 "2025-05-28T15:06:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Lying about the entire history of Zionism to twist it into bloodthirsty racist arab-hating cleansing ideology is not “mild criticism of Israel”. He’s not just twisting the history of Zionism in that way, he’s twisting the entire history of JUDAISM. That’s where it crosses the line between “poorly informed anti-Zionism” and “actual anti-Semitism”. I’m still holding out hope that he actually doesn’t want to be anti-Semitic and will respond thoughtfully to this correction, though. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/187 "2025-05-28T15:10:50Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I think it’s a little unreasonable when people ask why other Arab nations don’t take the Palestinians. > > Why not the US or Italy? > > Also, taking them in (assuming they want to go) would be enabling the cleansing. > > Finally, displaced Palestinians caused political instability in Egypt and Jordan, and was a causal factor in the Lebanese civil war. > > I don’t think it’s as simple as “Egypt could just homestead 2 million Gazans” I’m not suggesting having them move to Egypt. There is no reason why they can’t normalize relations with Egypt and have aid provided by them (and others), except as you pointed out: > [@](#): > > Finally, displaced Palestinians caused political instability in Egypt and Jordan, and was a causal factor in the Lebanese civil war. This is an issue that the Arab world has with the Palestinians but it’s easier for them to blame Israel. There is a war going on. Should India provide aid to Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/188 "2025-05-28T15:19:46Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > And when the Palestinians are _not_ removed from Gaza, will you: > > 1. Admit you were wrong > Or > 2. Maintain that like agreeing to a two state solution in 1948 with a Palestinian Ethnostate and a multicultural state with a slight Jewish majority, this is actually just another cunning step in their long term plan to exterminate the Palestinians I think those are fair questions. I think that the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza in the short term is a realistic but not inevitable possibility. So, in the event that the Palestinians _are_ removed from Gaza, will you: 1. Admit you were wrong Or 2. Maintain that the Palestinians brought this on themselves because of their long term plan to exterminate the Jews, and that although some regrettable abuses may have occurred, Israel remains a completely functional liberal democracy with the most moral army in the world, and that what’s done is done and Jews live in Gaza now so it’s ridiculous to talk about any “right of return”? ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/189 "2025-05-28T15:21:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Israel has always wanted an ethnostate in the Levant since biblical times. > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > This is probably the slimiest aspect of Zionism, the knee-jerk twisting of even mild criticism of Israel into an accusation of anti-Semitism and a desire to pursue another Holocaust. Can’t imagine how someone could twist this criticism of Israel into antisemitism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/190 "2025-05-28T15:27:42Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think those are fair questions. I think that the complete ethnic cleansing of Gaza in the short term is a realistic but not inevitable possibility. So, in the event that the Palestinians _are_ removed from Gaza, will you: > > 1. Admit you were wrong > Or > 2. Maintain that the Palestinians brought this on themselves because of their long term plan to exterminate the Jews, and that although some regrettable abuses may have occurred, Israel remains a completely functional liberal democracy with the most moral army in the world, and that what’s done is done and Jews live in Gaza now so it’s ridiculous to talk about any “right of return”? I don’t think it’s a realistic possibility; A, I think you guys are drastically misunderstanding the internal political situation in Israel, and B, even if you _were_ right about Bibi’s grasp on power or Ben Gvir/Smotrich’s level of influence, I just don’t think that vile accomplishment is within their grasp. But if I end up being wrong about that, I will of course admit that I was wrong. What I find fascinating about my interlocutors on this issue, like HMS, is that they take evidence to the contrary of their position - like the fact that the Yishuv _did_ in fact accept a two state solution with a very sizable Arab minority in Israel - and somehow twist it into what they claim is evidence _for_ their position. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/191 "2025-05-28T15:30:53Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > That “ghetto” as you call it borders with Egypt. Why does Egypt keep them closed in? In general, the reason Egypt has never fully opened that border is that they don’t want to be overwhelmed by refugees. During the current war, however, the IDF has at various times taken over control of the Gaza-Egypt border. From March 2 until yesterday they weren’t allowing any aid to cross the border at all. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/192 "2025-05-28T15:37:43Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > That “ghetto” as you call it borders with Egypt. Why does Egypt keep them closed in? Because in the past Hamas has stirred up trouble and violence in Egypt and Egypt very, very much wanted to keep them out of Egypt, even if they had to bar the door to a couple million Palestinians. When Israel gave the part of Sinai currently held by Egypt back to Egypt they offered Gaza as well. Egypt didn’t want it back then, either. Keeping the peace with Israel has worked out pretty well for Egypt over the past few decades, that might also have something to do with it. Pity that the two national leaders who signed the treaty were both assassinated for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/193 "2025-05-28T15:49:04Z")
It was a rhetorical question. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/194 "2025-05-28T15:50:30Z")
Pretty sure it was Menachem Begin who signed the peace treaty with Egypt, and it was signed before Hamas existed. Rabin was the Oslo Accords. Never heard of Israel offering Gaza to Egypt either, but I might just not have heard that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/195 "2025-05-28T15:51:29Z")
A very direct and forthright answer, thank you. Although I don’t have the bandwidth to get into the weeds about it right now, I will note that there is considerable debate among historians about the sincerity of the Zionist “acceptance” of the original UN partition plan. Not that I’m suggesting HMS himself is informed about that debate, as he clearly lacks a grasp on even the basic historical facts. ---
**Author:** ![DeadTreasSecretaries](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deadtreassecretaries/32/4817_2.png) [@DeadTreasSecretaries](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadTreasSecretaries)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/196 "2025-05-28T15:57:44Z")
I generally think it’s kind of silly to go too into the weeds about wars that both sides felt were inevitable. Like people obviously do this for WWI but more effort was put into saving face about not being seen as an aggressor than actually trying to avoid war. In 1948 Israel clearly accomplished that and were not the aggressors even if they were happy with a war that allowed them to secure a larger and more contiguous country than the UN had given them. It also consistently boggles my mind how the relevance of who started the war is used in a debate about ethnic cleansing. Random Palestinian civilians in Israel’s side of the partition, and Israelis and Jews in places controlled by Arab governments or paramilitaries didn’t start it which is why ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/197 "2025-05-28T16:10:10Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Pretty sure it was Menachem Begin who signed the peace treaty with Egypt, and it was signed before Hamas existed. Rabin was the Oslo Accords. I may not have been accurate on some of the time line as I was going strictly by my memory rather than on-line reputable sources. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/198 "2025-05-28T16:24:05Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Never heard of Israel offering Gaza to Egypt either, but I might just not have heard that. When Israel initially offered the Sinai in Camp David in 78, it also offered Gaza. Egypt rejected the proposals that included Gaza because they didn’t want to deal with the Palestinians by that point (Pan Arabism in Egypt pretty much died with Nasser, and Egypt had no other interest in Gaza or the Palestinians.) Incidentally, this is also why Egypt made peace with Israel at this point: without Pan Arabism, there was no reason for Egypt to fight Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/199 "2025-05-28T17:02:47Z")
I used to go a Buddhist temple to learn about meditation. One time, a guest monk spoke about his global journey to spread meditation teachings, and he visited a military post in Israel. He had a two-day session going on, and on the 2nd day, very few of the men showed up–just their wives and girlfriends. When he asked why, they told him his lectures on the value of all living beings were contrary to their army training, as the soldiers were trained to have no empathy for Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2025, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/200 "2025-05-28T17:19:49Z")
Trained to extinguish any spark of empathy? I guess that explains [Gal Gadot’s acting abilities](https://m.youtube.com/shorts/GPn-2iINSzY) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=11)