# I pit Zionism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840 "2025-05-27T02:30:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/41 "2025-05-27T12:03:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know enough about that history to comment They also have a “near-unique history of repeated oppression”, down to sharing the same extermination camps in the Holocaust. And their [current treatment in Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Romani_sentiment#Contemporary_antiziganism) is worse than even the current increased level of antisemitism there. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Also, IMO the location is not critical. I think quite a lot of (other) Zionists would disagree - see ITD’s post above, for instance: > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The desire to return to Israel has been ever present in our history. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/42 "2025-05-27T12:08:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think quite a lot of (other) Zionists would disagree - see ITD’s post above, for instance: Certainly. There’s a lot of diversity of thought among Zionists. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/43 "2025-05-27T12:10:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The actual founding of the country was mostly carried out by left-wing socialists. That is true. It is also true that the Israeli government and armed forces are _presently_ co-opted and under the control of the Right Wing descendants of that colonist you dismiss as fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/44 "2025-05-27T12:24:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > That is true. It is also true that the Israeli government and armed forces are _presently_ co-opted and under the control of the Right Wing descendants of that colonist you dismiss as fringe. Which is why I spend much of my time on Hebrew social media railing against Netanyahu, Smortrich, the Haredim and the rest of those assholes, their corruption, their attempts to undermine democracy and their mismanagement of the war. I do so because I am a patriot who loves his country, which is the exact same reason I refuse to let people challenge its right to exist. The fact that I want my country to be better doesn’t mean I have any less of a duty to protect it. My loyalty is not conditional. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/45 "2025-05-27T12:49:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > there is no price this country won’t pay to make sure something like that won’t happen again. Excuse me… _Who’s_ “paying the price”? Not you. Your victims are paying the price. Alessan, you’ve always been moderate and considerate, but this “paying the price” remark is incredibly clueless and ugly. The people of Gaza are paying the price. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/46 "2025-05-27T12:52:40Z")
I meant a moral price. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/47 "2025-05-27T12:58:44Z")
In other words… > **[Then Let Me Be Evil - TV Tropes](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThenLetMeBeEvil)** > > Sometimes the supposed "forces of good" in a story treat an "evil" character badly enough, for long enough, that the "evil" character just gives up trying to show the heroes that they are not evil and becomes a villain for real. Prolonged … ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/48 "2025-05-27T14:36:13Z")
How certain are you that the current path the Israeli government is taking is the best path towards long-term peace and security? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/49 "2025-05-27T14:44:11Z")
Given this: > [@Alessan](#): > > Which is why I spend much of my time on Hebrew social media railing against Netanyahu, Smortrich, the Haredim and the rest of those assholes, their corruption, their attempts to undermine democracy and their mismanagement of the war. Especially the mismanagement part, I’d say @Alessan is not certain at all. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/50 "2025-05-27T14:51:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How certain are you that the current path the Israeli government is taking is the best path towards long-term peace and security? I’m not sure the current government even has a path. Personally, I think that as this point, the best we can do is strike a deal, get the hostages back, withdraw, rebuild and prepare for the next round of fighting a few years down the line. Netanyahu has squandered Israel’s chance of driving Hamas out of power in Gaza; hopefully, we’ll be better prepared next time they attack. Maybe, once the fighting ends, the Gazans will look around, see how much a disaster Hamas has been for them, and do something about them. But I’ve learned not to rely on miracles. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/51 "2025-05-27T14:52:39Z")
Thank you. This is remarkably different from other “defenders” of the current path I’ve been discussing this (most notably @babale). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/52 "2025-05-27T15:05:01Z")
Subtleties are an… alien concept in these discussions, generally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/53 "2025-05-27T15:05:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Everyone worries where the conservatives or the LGBTQ posters have gone on this board. Watch while you lose the Jews, like me. I’ve all but stopped posting because of the deep seated antisemitism (I’m sorry- the morally acceptable “anti-Zionism”, as if it’s indistinguishable) on this board. > > The utter lack of self awareness and critical thinking is mind boggling and utterly unsurprising. Useful fools, indeed. > > @Alessan I don’t know how you engage and I don’t have your fortitude. I didn’t want you to be the lone voice and I worry for your safety and my friends and family’s safety in Israel, and my family and friends safety around the world. But I can’t anymore- I’ve lived with this in higher ed for too long now and I won’t put up with it here. > > Am Israel Chai and a damn proud Zionist. Very well said, ITD. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/54 "2025-05-27T15:12:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > ITD. What does “ITD” mean? (really asking…Google didn’t help.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/55 "2025-05-27T15:13:11Z")
It’s the poster he responded to. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/56 "2025-05-27T15:14:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Thank you. This is remarkably different from other “defenders” of the current path I’ve been discussing this (most notably @babale). I’m curious what you think Alessan said that I disagree with, or that my prior posts are against. I’ve agreed that the current government does not really have a path, no? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/57 "2025-05-27T15:14:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s the poster he responded to. Ah! Thanks! 🤦‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/58 "2025-05-27T15:15:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > They also have a “near-unique history of repeated oppression”, down to sharing the same extermination camps in the Holocaust. > > And their [current treatment in Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Romani_sentiment#Contemporary_antiziganism) is worse than even the current increased level of antisemitism there. Absolutely correct. They are the only other group that the Nazis targeted for complete extermination. While we are taking about other groups. In 1950 there were around 2.5 million Jews in Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia and Syria. These were not European immigrants. This population of Jews has been there for over 2500 years. There are maybe ten thousand now. Effectively extinct. Is this a genocide or ethnic cleansing? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/59 "2025-05-27T15:15:40Z")
Ivory Tower Denizen ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/60 "2025-05-27T15:16:27Z")
My recollection is that you believe Hamas will be crushed and Gaza occupied until it can be a peaceful neighbor. @Alessan doesn’t appear to believe that’s remotely in the cards of the current path. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=4)