# I pit Zionism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2025, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840 "2025-05-27T02:30:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/121 "2025-05-27T19:42:21Z")
My immediate reaction is what I used to say when my kids were fighting: I don’t fucking care whose fault it is, just quit fighting. I don’t fucking care whose blame is biggest, just fucking stop killing innocents. And right now, the IDF is killing the most of the innocents. Palestinian civilians, women and children are being crushed, bombed, burned and starved to death because the IDF - and Bibi - has less respect for the rules of war than even the US had in Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/122 "2025-05-27T19:45:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > a party that _actively sponsors_ far more serious crimes I was unaware that @iiandyiiii represented the PA… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/123 "2025-05-27T19:46:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Which is why I spend much of my time on Hebrew social media railing against Netanyahu, Smortrich, the Haredim and the rest of those assholes, their corruption, their attempts to undermine democracy and their mismanagement of the war. I do so because I am a patriot who loves his country, which is the exact same reason I refuse to let people challenge its right to exist. The fact that I want my country to be better doesn’t mean I have any less of a duty to protect it. 👍 Continue to do so, please. It is important for the world to know that not all Jews and not all Israelis are marching in lockstep with those pieces of shit in business suits. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/124 "2025-05-27T19:47:29Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How certain are you that the current path the Israeli government is taking is the best path towards long-term peace and security? Based on his statements I’m pretty sure he DOESN’T agree with his country’s current government. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/125 "2025-05-27T19:49:48Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > While we are taking about other groups. In 1950 there were around 2.5 million Jews in Egypt, Yemen, Tunisia, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia and Syria. These were not European immigrants. This population of Jews has been there for over 2500 years. There are maybe ten thousand now. Effectively extinct. Is this a genocide or ethnic cleansing? How many of those North Africa/Middle Eastern/Near Asian Jews immigrated to Israeli? You really need to take that into account as well. Some went on a more voluntary basis than others but a lot f people were going into Israeli as well as out during that time. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/126 "2025-05-27T19:53:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Question for you, what has the Palestinian Authority historically done\* when _their_ citizens murder Israelis? Do they: > > 1. Punish those people to prevent and disincentivize such behavior > > Or do they > > 1. Pay those people out of a specialty designated Martyr’s Fund (thanks for that aid money, Westerners!) This gets back to the idea that Hamas (and the Palestinian Authority) have a lot more in common with Likud than they do with the Palestinian victims of Likud. As long as we frame it like Palestinians and their government are on one side, and Israelis and their government are on another, we’re going to be pressured into approving of one set of atrocities or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/127 "2025-05-27T19:54:47Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > **You** may not be saying that. And others may not be saying that outright. I hope I was clear: I am satisfied, by searching on your username, that that’s not why you chose that username. But I was suspicious, because of “what I hear from my local community.” You’re suspicious because of what you hear from your local Jewish communities as well. I urge you to do what I did: instead of drawing conclusions based on what you hear, dig deeper. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/128 "2025-05-27T19:56:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > How many of those North Africa/Middle Eastern/Near Asian Jews immigrated to Israeli? You really need to take that into account as well. Some went on a more voluntary basis than others but a lot f people were going into Israeli as well as out during that time. I think most of them went to the US, Canada and Western Europe in particular the Iranians. The Ethiopians were Falashan and mainly did go to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/129 "2025-05-27T20:01:23Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > Me, I’m rather intrigued about how both the Israeli government and jewish communities around the world try their best to brand legitimate critique of the war crimes that IDF and the current Israeli admin are committing as anti-semitism. Because, dammit, that’s what they’re doing. War crimes. All the time. Not ALL “Jewish communities” are doing that. There is considerable opposition to the actions of the Israeli government. You’re just not hearing about them because (assuming you’re living in the US) OUR current government is hell-bent on punishing anyone who does so, and is even attempting to pass laws that would make criticizing the Israeli government a _crime in the US._ Trump has taken it upon himself to declare people “bad Jews” for not agreeing with him, and so on. Because he doesn’t actually give a flying fuck about Jews, they’re just pawns in the game to him. Like every other major world religion Jews have various different groups. Some are quite conservative and want to return to what they believe and earlier time was like. Others are very progressive, fully engaged in the modern world. Oddly enough there are group opposed to Netanyahu from _both_ ends of that spectrum which is sort of amazing that you could get insular sects like the Ultra-Orthodox in NYC, some of whom have been opposed to Modern Israel since the 1940’s and the far end of the progressive/reconstructionist sects, some of whom those same UO’s don’t even recognized as Jews, to actually agree on something. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/130 "2025-05-27T20:05:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > What does that have to do with the Israeli government tolerating settler brutality and crimes? > > “You’re tolerating crimes against us!” comes across _much_ less seriously when it comes from a party that _actively sponsors_ far more serious crimes against the people they’re complaining about. Not sure what you’re trying to say, except it appears to be an attempt to minimize or excuse Israeli government toleration of settler brutality and theft. At least you’re not trying to deny it. ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/131 "2025-05-27T20:30:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Not ALL “Jewish communities” are doing that. I didn’t say “ALL”. I have far from sufficient data to have an opinion about what “ALL” Jewish communities do. But the leader of our national Jewish community is doing a lot of that. For some reason, I tend to think that the leader of our national Jewish community has a lot of authority when it comes to speaking on behalf of his constituents. And - to repeat myself - I thoroughly believe that he and Bibi and Bibi’s disciples are shooting their own foot when they do their very best to conflate legitimate concerns about Israel’s and IDF’s actions and war crimes with anti-semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/132 "2025-05-27T20:34:27Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > But the leader of our national Jewish community Say what now? ---
**Author:** ![JoePockets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8dc957/32.png) [@JoePockets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoePockets)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/133 "2025-05-27T20:39:33Z")
Broomstick, Thank you for taking the time explaining your position on this matter! It was well worth the read…I learned something to today ! This is a great thread! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/134 "2025-05-27T20:54:29Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > My immediate reaction is what I used to say when my kids were fighting: I don’t fucking care whose fault it is, just quit fighting. > > I don’t fucking care whose blame is biggest, just fucking stop killing innocents. And right now, the IDF is killing the most of the innocents. Palestinian civilians, women and children are being crushed, bombed, burned and starved to death because the IDF - and Bibi - has less respect for the rules of war than even the US had in Vietnam. But again, what do you think Israel should be doing? Don’t just say again what you think they shouldn’t be doing. That’s not the question. Do you think Israel should withdraw its troops from Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![Norse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9adbd/32.png) [@Norse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norse)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/135 "2025-05-27T20:57:19Z")
In my country, there is a national Jewish community. They claim to speak on behalf of Jews in my country. They - like all organizations - have a leader. He speaks a lot on behalf of the organization he’s leading and - by extension - on behalf of a lot of religious Jews here. And he’s pretty good at conflating any critizism against the IDF and Israel’s war crimes with anti-semitism, as are Bibi and the Israeli ambassador to our country. Is it still unclear? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/136 "2025-05-27T21:04:39Z")
What country? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/137 "2025-05-27T21:39:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t think we should withdraw at this time, no. Precisely because I agree that if we do it would just mean a pause in the fighting. If we left today, then in a couple years when Hamas repeats their attack we would need to repeat the whole drawn out process of fighting in Gaza. At the risk of trying to start a serious conversation in this dumpster fire of a thread, if you’re calling for indefinite occupation with no defined endpoint, how exactly does your position differ from Bibi’s in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/138 "2025-05-27T21:44:49Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > In my country, there is a national Jewish community. They claim to speak on behalf of Jews in my country. They - like all organizations - have a leader. This makes no sense. There may be some sort of group but there aren’t national Jewish communities that speak for anyone. Whatever the hell they are they don’t represent all Jews in your country or even most of them. We don’t have a hierarchy like that. That’s not how it works Please stop being coy. Who is this person? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/139 "2025-05-27T22:04:31Z")
[I think this is a very perceptive article by a self-identified Zionist i](https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-the-american-jewish-community-can-and-must-do-about-jewish-anti-zionism/)dentifying why “anti-Zionist” has become such a popular label among progressives and younger people: After sixteen years of almost unbroken Netanyahu rule, it’s getting harder to maintain a distinction between “normal Zionism” and “racist, ethnic-cleansing Zionism”. American voters under thirty have never seen any evidence that Israel is capable of electing non-horrible leaders. With all respect to good people like Alessan, they appear to be an increasingly marginalized minority. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2025, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840/140 "2025-05-27T22:11:47Z")
> [@Norse](#): > > In my country, there is a national Jewish community. They claim to speak on behalf of Jews in my country. They - like all organizations - have a leader. He speaks a lot on behalf of the organization he’s leading and - by extension - on behalf of a lot of religious Jews here. And he’s pretty good at conflating any critizism against the IDF and Israel’s war crimes with anti-semitism, as are Bibi and the Israeli ambassador to our country. > > Is it still unclear? A person claiming to speak of behalf of Jews is not the same as a Jewish leader. The issue is whether any sizable number of other Jews recognize this person’s authority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-zionism/1018840.md?page=8)