# I Pitt "Piss Obama" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606 "2012-11-30T20:24:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/221 "2012-12-08T22:27:40Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If the artist’s intent/opinion is irrelevant to the meaning of a piece of art, either it has no meaning or it has as many meanings as there are people who view it, none any more or less relevant than anyone else’s. IMO that makes a critic the most replaceable person on the planet. 😉 “If you can see it, darling, it’s there” - Freddie Mercury That being said, I still reckon the artist can at least elucidate on what he \*wanted \*to say and meant, what he felt while saying it and what he deliberately put “there” for you to see ; and that his own opinion on the matter’s probably worth a little more than that of Joe Philistine (of the Scarborough Philistines). ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/222 "2012-12-08T22:46:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > … and that his own opinion on the matter’s probably worth a little more than that of Joe Philistine (of the Scarborough Philistines). Personally, I agree with you. But I was really shocked and lost a good deal of respect for these academics when I found out they think the artist’s intentions are essentially irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/223 "2012-12-09T03:36:26Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If the artist’s intent/opinion is irrelevant to the meaning of a piece of art, either it has no meaning or it has as many meanings as there are people who view it, none any more or less relevant than anyone else’s. IMO that makes a critic the most replaceable person on the planet. 😉 That seems the wrong way around, to me. If there’s a single ultimate answer to any piece of art, and the artist holds it, what’s the point to having critics? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/224 "2012-12-09T03:57:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That seems the wrong way around, to me. If there’s a single ultimate answer to any piece of art, and the artist holds it, what’s the point to having critics? I didn’t say there was a single ultimate answer. I said the artist’s opinions and intent in the creation of art are important and relevant. But I’m unable to answer the second part of your question. What IS the point to having critics? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/225 "2012-12-09T05:21:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That seems the wrong way around, to me. If there’s a single ultimate answer to any piece of art, and the artist holds it, what’s the point to having critics? Momentarily taking advantage of the fact that I agree with what you’ve said so far… To ask the question that **Boyo Jim** suggested…do you, in fact, hold critics to be the most highly replaceable people on earth? Me, I do! Speaking from experience, I feel that pretty much anybody can write reviews. It’s one of the lower-echelon jobs at newspapers. Art interpretation is terribly subjective; two people can look at the same work and derive completely opposite impressions. The value, of course, of criticism is prophylactic and/or partisan. I might pan a movie, and thereby spare you the unpleasant experience of seeing it. I might praise a movie, and prompt you to the joyful experience of seeing it. A lot depends on finding a critic whose tastes match your own. But, let’s face it, if all the art critics in the world died…would it make a noise? Anyway, I’m with you on Serrano: it’s absurd to try to derive his intentions without better evidence than that asserted so far in this thread. (Hm… Print out the Doper names of everybody I disagree with…put it in a cup…pee in the cup…photograph it… Is it art? Or criticism?) ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/226 "2012-12-09T07:00:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > \ > Sometimes a pig is just a pig. I would have used the quote “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” Groucho Marx or Sigmund Freud ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/227 "2012-12-09T07:32:10Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > To ask the question that **Boyo Jim** suggested…do you, in fact, hold critics to be the most highly replaceable people on earth? Not in a world where _I’m a Celebrity… Get Me Out of Here!_ is still on the air. > [@](#): > > Me, I do! Speaking from experience, I feel that pretty much anybody can write reviews. It’s one of the lower-echelon jobs at newspapers. Art interpretation is terribly subjective; two people can look at the same work and derive completely opposite impressions. I don’t agree at all that “anybody” can write reviews. Or rather, not everyone can write a review that anybody else would ever want to read. You ask most people what they think about a movie, and you get something like [this](http://www.hulu.com/watch/4186?playlist_id=680). Someone who can write interestingly and intelligently about art is a relatively rare find. > [@](#): > > The value, of course, of criticism is prophylactic and/or partisan. I might pan a movie, and thereby spare you the unpleasant experience of seeing it. I might praise a movie, and prompt you to the joyful experience of seeing it. A lot depends on finding a critic whose tastes match your own. That’s part of it, certainly, but I think a really good critic can also introduce new ideas about a work that you hadn’t necessarily thought of, or provide a perspective on the work that you’d never considered. While you might not end up incorporating that critic’s views into your own appreciation of the work, it can still be interesting to see how someone else reacted to the work. > [@](#): > > But, let’s face it, if all the art critics in the world died…would it make a noise? Oh, yes, absolutely. Without the critics, we would have forgotten Melville. We would never have known Van Gogh. We would have lost countless other artists, after their heyday passed, if it weren’t for critics keeping them in currency by talking about them, analyzing them, and representing them to the general public. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/228 "2012-12-09T09:43:04Z")
I learned something today. Or several things. 1. That Glenn Beck still has a TV show of some sort, and not just radio. 2. That he made a beer effigy to Obama 3. That Piss Christ is old. 4. That Piss Christ is a photograph. 5. That really cool photo I’ve seen is Piss Christ. 6. That it was not intended to be offensive. 7. That one of the components of urine is offensiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/229 "2012-12-10T04:16:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > . . . I don’t agree at all that “anybody” can write reviews. Or rather, not everyone can write a review that anybody else would ever want to read. . . . Someone who can write interestingly and intelligently about art is a relatively rare find. 'Spose so… I used to hang around with a theater critic for a local newspaper – he’d always get two tickets, and I was his guest fairly often. He was a poser, a fraud, a pretender, and the most valuable thing I ever learned from him was how to really pile up a plate at an art-show buffet. I guess I am generalizing too much from this one really bad example. I, myself, turned down a position as a game reviewer for a gaming magazine, because, to do the job honestly, I’d have to give bad reviews as well as good ones, and too many of the designers at the time were friends of mine. Rather than having to say, “Joe is a nice guy, but his latest game is not very good,” I politely declined the job offer. > [@](#): > > That’s part of it, certainly, but I think a really good critic can also introduce new ideas about a work that you hadn’t necessarily thought of, or provide a perspective on the work that you’d never considered. While you might not end up incorporating that critic’s views into your own appreciation of the work, it can still be interesting to see how someone else reacted to the work. Fair enough. Also, a good art critic can point out some of the technical things about painting, engraving, casting, etc., that most of us don’t know. One really wonderful series of photographs, for instance, showed a sculpture in various stages. Time-lapse, so to speak. It conveyed a lot more information than the final, finished sculpture, alone, would have. > [@](#): > > Oh, yes, absolutely. Without the critics, we would have forgotten Melville. We would never have known Van Gogh. We would have lost countless other artists, after their heyday passed, if it weren’t for critics keeping them in currency by talking about them, analyzing them, and representing them to the general public. Fair enough again. I hadn’t known that Melville and Van Gogh had been endangered in that way. I have heard that it is only because of Mendelssohn that we know of Bach today, and Vivaldi was pretty much brought back from the dead by the 1960’s flash popularity of “The Four Seasons.” So, hooray for reviewers as advocates. (But, oy vey, you should have read some of the pure drivel that my friend pumped out! He’s an editor today…) ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/230 "2012-12-10T13:47:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Oh, for fuck’s sake. Yes, I get that. I understand why people are offended by this picture. There is no part of that reaction that I do not understand. You claim this, yet you also claim to not understand the difference between using urine as an ingredient in paint in the Sistine Chapel and in Piss Christ. You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/231 "2012-12-10T13:48:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Tell me what the \*real \*message \*smart \*people get from it. Exactly. It seems Miller has interpreted the work in a certain way. Anyone who disagrees with this interpretation is not only wrong, but stupid. This includes Jesse Helms, most Christians, and even the artist himself. Can’t argue with that, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/232 "2012-12-10T13:50:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, what you’re saying is, despite using a substance that’s generally considered unclean or disgusting to make his images of God and Jesus and so forth, there’s all these factors… let’s call them, I dunno, _context_… that makes it clear that the Sistine Chapel isn’t insulting towards Christianity. > > My next question, obviously, is why are you so willing to accept context for one situation, and so stubborn about considering it in another? There is no similar context for Piss Christ. The urine is part of the work. On purpose. It’s not just a commonly used ingredient that is in all paint like when the Sistine Chapel was painted. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/233 "2012-12-10T14:37:02Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > I would have used the quote > “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” > Groucho Marx or Sigmund Freud “A woman is just a woman..but a good cigar is a smoke.”. Attributed to Sigmund Freud ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/234 "2012-12-10T18:03:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Exactly. It seems Miller has interpreted the work in a certain way. Anyone who disagrees with this interpretation is not only wrong, but stupid. This includes Jesse Helms, most Christians, and even the artist himself. > > Can’t argue with that, I guess. I said one particular interpretation is stupid. That’s not even close to saying that only my interpretation is the “smart” one. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/235 "2012-12-11T00:20:41Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > “A woman is just a woman..but a good cigar is a smoke.”. > Attributed to Sigmund Freud Freud? Kipling, by most accounts. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/236 "2012-12-11T19:54:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Exactly. It seems Miller has interpreted the work in a certain way. Anyone who disagrees with this interpretation is not only wrong, but stupid. This includes Jesse Helms, most Christians, and even the artist himself. > > Can’t argue with that, I guess. I wouldn’t say that that was Millers point at all. Miller points out one of many possible interpretations. That in my opinion the beauty of the work is that it challenges per-conceptions (that piss can’t be beautiful), and opens the viewer to many other ideas of what it represents. On possible interpretation is that of shock: “Look I’m defiling your sacred god”. I think even Miller would agree that that is one possible interpretation. What divides the intellectually curious from the intellectually lazy is the belief that the interpretation of shock is the only valid interpretation, and so that the piece is without worth. It would be like watching Citizen Kane and thinking it was just a movie about some guy who missed his sled. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/237 "2012-12-11T22:37:39Z")
Or like watching Citizen Kane and thinking it’s nothing more than a nasty slur on the life of William Hearst. Obviously, it was intended to offend the Hearst family. There can be no other point to the movie… ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/238 "2012-12-11T23:16:50Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > If I put an image of President Obama in a jar of piss and called it “Piss President”, I would expect Obama supporters to be offended despite my protestations that it was merely about the cheapening of the presidency. I’d be more interested if you could convince Obama supporters that a hanging chair was a comment on the decline of public discourse. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And I followed up with the same general question to bunches of curators over the next few weeks, and got the same response. The meaning of the art is in the mind of the viewer (or listener, or whatever) and the intent of the artist at the time of creation is at best an interesting historical footnote. Yeah, this is eisegesis - or “death of the author”. It means that reviews are best considered as works of art themselves rather than insights into the mind of the artist (other than when they refer to falsifiable information). If you don’t like a particular approach, don’t pay it any heed. If a reviewers opinion consistently coincides with yours (Charlie Brooker, for instance), take pleasure in reading their reviews. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/239 "2012-12-12T12:08:06Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Freud? Kipling, by most accounts. Pretty sure it’s Shakespeare, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/240 "2012-12-12T22:00:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Pretty sure it’s Shakespeare, dude. Tolkien, surely. Pipe-weed, and all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606.md?page=13)