# I Pitt "Piss Obama" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606 "2012-11-30T20:24:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/121 "2012-12-04T21:21:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Meh. Christians were pissed off by _Last Temptation of Christ_, which I personally found to be a faith-affirming movie. That religious folk were angered by it hardly means anything to me. That was 25 years ago also, but I never saw it so I can’t comment. As to Christians being pissed off about lots of things: Sure, I’ll agree that they tend to be a sensitive bunch. But, who isn’t? Take any group of people and they are going to look out for them and theirs. Especially religions. As an atheist I’d certainly say that the Christians are far less overly sensitive then the Muslims. Try making a “Piss Mohammed” work of art. The artist would have to go into hiding from death threats. There would be massive rioting, probably with deaths. Plus it’s certainly not getting funded by the government of a majority Muslim country. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/122 "2012-12-04T21:24:56Z")
There are plenty of muslims in non-middle eastern countries who would be calm and collected about such a work. You are mistaking the attitudes of the culture for those of the religion. The one is sometimes used to inflame the other, certainly evil, evil things have been done in the name of christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/123 "2012-12-04T21:28:13Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Is it really that clearly an insult? Just looking at the image by itself. without knowing anything about it, would you characterize this as an anti-Christian or anti-religious image? I don’t know about you, but without knowing how the picture was made, that looks like a pretty reverent image to me. There’s nothing within the image itself to tell us that the material the crucifix is submerged in is urine - to learn that, we need to go to information not contained in the actual image itself. Is using urine in a work of art to obtain a particular effect automatically insulting, regardless of how the effect itself comes across? I love the Dope, but we can be a bit overly analytical at times. You sound like Data from Star Trek struggling to understand those pesky unpredictable humans. The work is Titled “Piss Christ”. The point of the work is that it’s piss. It’s not like he was just looking for the perfect medium to take a flattering picture of Christ and piss looked better than apple juice. People do know how it was made because the artist wanted them to. It’s obviously insulting. > [@](#): > > How many of the insulted Christians in question actually looked at the picture before they decided they were insulted by it? I wrote a limerick. It’s called “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” Just kidding, I don’t actually write limericks. But seriously, Joe is a fucking asshole. Does Joe need to read it to know that it’s insulting to him? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/124 "2012-12-04T21:34:20Z")
Damn, I got all excited to read the limerick. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/125 "2012-12-04T21:36:25Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That was 25 years ago also, but I never saw it so I can’t comment. > > As to Christians being pissed off about lots of things: Sure, I’ll agree that they tend to be a sensitive bunch. But, who isn’t? Take any group of people and they are going to look out for them and theirs. Especially religions. > > As an atheist I’d certainly say that the Christians are far less overly sensitive then the Muslims. Try making a “Piss Mohammed” work of art. The artist would have to go into hiding from death threats. There would be massive rioting, probably with deaths. Plus it’s certainly not getting funded by the government of a majority Muslim country. I certainly think Serrano knew that his work was going to offend a bunch of folk. But there’s a difference between that and intending. I’ll actually take him at his word that his intent was not to offend (and it seems that some, like Sister Wendy got the point.) As a work, I find it aesthetically reasonable, but conceptually a bit ham-fisted and obvious, like something a high school student would come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/126 "2012-12-04T22:00:28Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I love the Dope, but we can be a bit overly analytical at times. You sound like Data from Star Trek struggling to understand those pesky unpredictable humans. We’re talking about modern art. It’s _supposed_ to be highly analytical. > [@](#): > > The work is Titled “Piss Christ”. The point of the work is that it’s piss. It’s not like he was just looking for the perfect medium to take a flattering picture of Christ and piss looked better than apple juice. People do know how it was made because the artist wanted them to. You didn’t answer my question. Just looking at the actual image, and knowing nothing else about it, would you say that it reads as anti-religious? > [@](#): > > It’s obviously insulting. I don’t think you’ve made a very good case for this statement. > [@](#): > > I wrote a limerick. It’s called “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” > > Just kidding, I don’t actually write limericks. But seriously, Joe is a fucking asshole. > > Does Joe need to read it to know that it’s insulting to him? Yes, absolutely. How is that even a question? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/127 "2012-12-04T22:50:35Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > . . . I wrote a limerick. It’s called “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” > > . . . Does Joe need to read it to know that it’s insulting to him? There once was a Joe, hypothetical, Also an asshole (parenthetical), He just joined the 'Dope, But could not manage to cope, With reason and logic exigetical. And, yes, if he were insulted by this without reading it, he suffers from prejudicial thinking. I might make an excuse for him having read the first two lines, but that, too, betrays hasty reasoning and a leap to conclusions. Oh, say, your first name wouldn’t be… Um… ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/128 "2012-12-04T22:53:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, absolutely. How is that even a question? Because the name of the limerick is “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” Even if, magically, the limerick were about how the last thing in the world Hypothetical Joe is, is a fucking asshole, the writer of the limerick should not be surprised to find out Hypothetical Joe was insulted. Off-topic, but ‘fucking asshole’ doesn’t even \*come \*close to fitting the meter at the end of a limerick line. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/129 "2012-12-04T23:56:46Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Because the name of the limerick is “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” Right, I got that, thanks. The point I’m trying to make is that if you judge a work solely and entirely based on its name, you’re an idiot. A point which, I would have thought, was self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/130 "2012-12-05T00:14:00Z")
Debaser, I wrote you a poem. I call it “Debaser, you are such a thick nitwit that my contempt for you knows absolutely no bounds. Eat shit and die.” Now, I want you to judge its content on what it has to say about you _without_ reading it. Okay. Did that? Now write that down, and come back and read the poem. [spoiler] Debaser, you are such a thick nitwit that my contempt for you knows absolutely no bounds. Eat shit and die. ## No, actually, not really. You’re actually a pretty swell guy, with generally good opinions and intentions. Sure, you don’t know much about modern art but that’s okay Modern art takes the piss anyways[/spoiler] …See how this works? Also, as a side note, I can’t believe I got through that with a straight face. Modern art is _intended_ to be highly analytical. Nobody looking at a Pollock without heavy analysis in mind is going to say, “Wow, what a wonderful piece of art”. They’re going to say, “Hey, who drooled paint all over this nice canvas?” Double that for pieces which are more abstract, like [this guy’s pretentious bullshit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Reinhardt) or [that piece the cleaning lady mistook for stains on the wall](http://www.businessinsider.com/german-cleaning-lady-destroys-priceless-museum-art-2011-11) (did us all a favor in destroying that one). You can’t just take Piss Christ at its word. It’s not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/131 "2012-12-05T00:28:18Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Nobody looking at a Pollock without heavy analysis in mind is going to say, “Wow, what a wonderful piece of art”. They’re going to say, “Hey, who drooled paint all over this nice canvas?” Um…I disagree with that. A Pollock to me (and many others) is beautiful on its face, no need for deep analysis. Hell, I don’t look at a Pollock and analyze it in any meaningful sense, other than to just get lost in it. I’m not even sure what kind of deep analysis you can apply to it. I mean, you can talk about the patterns, the composition, the interaction of thick and thin splashes, etc., but, in the end of the day, it’s about the visual impact–at least to me. ETA: I’m actually not familiar with Ad Reinhardt’s work, but looking it up, it looks quite beautiful. It’s not on the level of the Abstract Expressionists I love, but I don’t see what is “pretentious bullshit” about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/132 "2012-12-05T02:20:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I wrote a limerick. It’s called “Hypothetical Joe is a fucking asshole.” > > Just kidding, I don’t actually write limericks. But seriously, Joe is a fucking asshole. > > Does Joe need to read it to know that it’s insulting to him? I just wrote a song. It’s called “Born in the U.S.A.”. Usually when I sing it, my friend Jimi plays The Star-Spangled Banner afterwards. Do you need to hear us to know we’re really not all that patriotic an act ? OF COURSE you fucking need to examine the actual fucking work (and in its proper fucking context) to know what the fucking artist has to fucking say rather than just going by the fucking title and whatever you fucking project on it. The hell is the matter with you ? [QUOTE=Budget Player Cadet] You can’t just take Piss Christ at its word. It’s not that simple. [/QUOTE] Well, actually you can, and maybe you should, in a Magritte sort of way. Because it is “Christ in a jar of piss”, but only in the very strictest of senses. \*Ceci n’est pas un Jésus \*or rather while this is indeed _a_ Jesus, it is not \*the \*Jesus. It probably isn’t the Christ you are looking for, either. Pissing on the representation is not remotely or obviously equivalent with pissing on the represented, and insulting one kind of representation is not equivalent to insulting them all either. I guess what I’m trying to say is that little plastic Jesuses stamped in Taiwan for 10c a unit like the one used in Piss Christ are \*really \*fucking tacky and insulting on just about every conceptual level (religious and irreligious alike). So why the hell not drop them in piss ? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/133 "2012-12-05T03:34:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > . . . I guess what I’m trying to say is that little plastic Jesuses stamped in Taiwan for 10c a unit like the one used in Piss Christ are \*really \*fucking tacky and insulting on just about every conceptual level . . . Otherwise, we’d all glue one to the rear bumper of our cars, and anyone who honks at us in traffic is showing disrespect for Jesus. (I actually once met an asshole who said that it was religious oppression for me to say something rude about a woman – a modern living lady! – named Guadalupe. To do so is to show disrespect for the Holy Virgin of Guadalupe! So, get with it, everyone: name your kids after Saints and Apostles and the like, and nobody can put them down without being blasphemous!) ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/134 "2012-12-05T04:14:44Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What did the piece mean? I don’t know, personally; I’m no expert on modern art. But let’s keep something in mind here - it was created in the 80s, and when it was produced, it was revolutionary. Not just because a guy put an idol of christ in piss, but because nobody had successfully used mere shock and disgust as an art form beforehand. What about Artist’s Shit by Piero Manzoni in the 1960s? Or Marcel Duchamp’s The Fountain, 1917? > [@](#): > > I don’t like modern art, but I like even less when partisan hacks make a lousy political point and in the process insult that art. So people should be able to insult religion but not art? ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/135 "2012-12-05T04:29:26Z")
I guess since FOX and Beck have parted he has to do something to get in the news these days. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/136 "2012-12-05T09:35:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Um…I disagree with that. A Pollock to me (and many others) is beautiful on its face, no need for deep analysis. Hell, I don’t look at a Pollock and analyze it in any meaningful sense, other than to just get lost in it. I’m not even sure what kind of deep analysis you can apply to it. I mean, you can talk about the patterns, the composition, the interaction of thick and thin splashes, etc., but, in the end of the day, it’s about the visual impact–at least to me. > > ETA: I’m actually not familiar with Ad Reinhardt’s work, but looking it up, it looks quite beautiful. It’s not on the level of the Abstract Expressionists I love, but I don’t see what is “pretentious bullshit” about it. I really, _reaaalllly_ dislike modern art. I find it almost universally pretentious and utterly nonsensical; a piece where you cannot sniff out the author’s intention without a guidebook is a lousy piece. (I feel similarly about “modern” music like John Cage.) So take my comments about Ad Reinhardt and Jackson Bollock with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/137 "2012-12-05T11:35:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > (I actually once met an asshole who said that it was religious oppression for me to say something rude about a woman – a modern living lady! – named Guadalupe. To do so is to show disrespect for the Holy Virgin of Guadalupe! So, get with it, everyone: name your kids after Saints and Apostles and the like, and nobody can put them down without being blasphemous!) That’s annoying as fuck. Some guy at my secondary school kept saying my name in order to rankle me (I happen to be named after a saint). When I asked him what he wanted, he just stopped. After a while, I did the same back to him and he was infuriated, saying that I mocked the name of some important figure in Islam. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/138 "2012-12-05T14:40:09Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I really, _reaaalllly_ dislike modern art. I find it almost universally pretentious and utterly nonsensical; a piece where you cannot sniff out the author’s intention without a guidebook is a lousy piece. (I feel similarly about “modern” music like John Cage.) So take my comments about Ad Reinhardt and Jackson Bollock with a grain of salt. Gotcha. I’m not really interested in artist’s intent myself, just what looks beautiful to me (and my art tastes tend to non-representational, since I work in a representational medium most of the time [photography], so I’m more of the “show me something I can’t imagine” type of person). But that’s all a subject for another thread, and I think we’ve done it about every six months. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/139 "2012-12-05T14:57:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > We’re talking about modern art. It’s _supposed_ to be highly analytical. I’m not talking about you being overly analytical about the work. I’m talking about you being overly analytical in how you are attempting to understand the reaction of Christians to the insulting nature of the piece. Of course they are going to be insulted. It’s their god. Submerged in piss. How you don’t get that this is insulting is very odd indeed. > [@](#): > > You didn’t answer my question. Just looking at the actual image, and knowing nothing else about it, would you say that it reads as anti-religious? I’ve not answered it but I have addressed it. It’s moot. Who cares what it looks like. It’s named Piss Christ and is obviously offensive and insulting to Christians. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you’ve made a very good case for this statement. I find it hard to believe you don’t see the insult. Are you trying to make some kind of point? If so, go ahead, but playing coy about this just seems silly. > [@](#): > > Yes, absolutely. How is that even a question? If you don’t get this then I can’t help you. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606/140 "2012-12-05T15:08:30Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I just wrote a song. It’s called “Born in the U.S.A.”. Usually when I sing it, my friend Jimi plays The Star-Spangled Banner afterwards. Do you need to hear us to know we’re really not all that patriotic an act ? > > OF COURSE you fucking need to examine the actual fucking work (and in its proper fucking context) to know what the fucking artist has to fucking say rather than just going by the fucking title and whatever you fucking project on it. The hell is the matter with you ? Your analogy doesn’t give enough information to make a pre-judgement. I’m not saying that in 100% of cases you can know a work in insulted by just a name and a description. But I am saying in some cases you can. Change your analogy to be: “We just wrote a song. It’s called “Fuck America”. While I sing it my friend Jimi wipes his ass with the American Flag.” Then I would be comfortable judging it as insulting to Americans without listening to it. Of course, maybe you would be trying to prove some kind of point in a ham-fisted way, as the artist of “Piss Christ” was. But that hardly matters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pitt-piss-obama/642606.md?page=8)